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 Post subject: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:24 pm
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Location: Boston, Ma. USA
I have started reloading recently. Currently I’ve just been making up loads to break clays, but I shoot fiber wads, exclusively, when hunting. I plan to load my own fiber wad shells in the future, but I’ve got a question.

Can I use fiber wads in Winchester AA hulls?

After reading the Eurotrash thread I’m more confused. My take away, they are not true straight wall hulls, but can be load as such. But, no mention of fiber wads. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.



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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:23 pm 
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Flairball wrote:
I have started reloading recently. Currently I’ve just been making up loads to break clays,


Increase your life insurance poste haste


Flairball wrote:
but I shoot fiber wads, exclusively, when hunting. I plan to load my own fiber wad shells in the future, but I’ve got a question.

Can I use fiber wads in Winchester AA hulls?


No help from me on this one
Flairball wrote:
After reading the Eurotrash thread I’m more confused. My take away, they are not true straight wall hulls, but can be load as such. But, no mention of fiber wads. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.


I've read most of these same euro threads, and I never got that idea. As I type this, I can't think if one euro hull that is NOT a straight walled hull. Perhaps others will correct me. I hope one of our UK shooters chime in here for your fiber wad answer, I think they would be about the only ones with any advice for you here.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:31 pm 
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Seems this thread is going strangely........ requesting information on what exactly? Making up loads? What gauge,gun,powder so on and so forth... before information can be returned the OP needs to provide a bit. Starting to reload? Have a manual? have a gun? hunt what? shoot what? Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:51 am 
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Winchester AA hulls themselves aren't taper wall, - they are straight-wall hulls, but they have an insert in them (a basewad) which makes its internal geometry that of a true taper hull like a Remington :

Image

I don't see any reason you couldn't use fiber wads in these hulls, and I'm sure there's data out there.

I think that would be neat to use fiber wads in these hulls (with the right data).


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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:23 am 
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Euro hulls reload fibre ok. Ive used them nearly exclusive all my life


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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:37 am 
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Go on EBay and get a copy of Lyman’s 2nd edition. Then get some Federal paper hulls. They are about the only hull in Lyman’s 2nd that’s still available. Get components on EBay. Learn about applying wad pressure. Then follow the recipes carefully.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:21 am 
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Location: Boston, Ma. USA
llc wrote:
Seems this thread is going strangely........ requesting information on what exactly? Making up loads? What gauge,gun,powder so on and so forth... before information can be returned the OP needs to provide a bit. Starting to reload? Have a manual? have a gun? hunt what? shoot what? Larry


The question is quite simple; can I use a fibre wad in a Win AA. They get mentioned in the straight wall hull thread, but it is somewhat confusing to me.

New to reloading, but have been following a published recipe, from my manual, making 20g lead target loads.

Not sure how some of what you are asking matters, but,...

Yes, I have a gun. I have a few of them. They have two barrels.

The loads I wish to make will be used to hunt here in the US. I hunt, almost exclusively ruffed grouse and woodcock. Occasionally, pheasant. I don’t think any of this would change the outcome of my query.

The question is quite simple; can I use a fibre wad in a Win AA. They get mentioned in the straight wall hull thread, but it is somewhat confusing to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:23 am 
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cookoff013 wrote:
Euro hulls reload fibre ok. Ive used them nearly exclusive all my life


So, is the Win AA considered a Euro hull? Can I load them with a fibre wad?

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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:43 am 
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Flairball wrote:
cookoff013 wrote:
Euro hulls reload fibre ok. Ive used them nearly exclusive all my life


So, is the Win AA considered a Euro hull? Can I load them with a fibre wad?

The Win AA is definitely not a Euro, or straight walled hull.

I don't know about being able to load using a fiber wad, but you likely could. The issue I see is determining the size of the wad due to the taper of the basewad. You would have to figure a way of measuring the base wad at the height of your powder charge. The fit would suffer no matter what you do.

It would be a lot easier to start with a straight wall hull.


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 Post subject: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:47 am 
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The short answer to your question is that you can load the old AA compression formed hulls with fiber wads. There are a number of recipes in Lyman’s second edition as I told you earlier. However, that hull has been out of production for a number of years. The newer HS hull is “supposed” to load like the old CF hull in theory, but that is not always the case. As far as straight wall European style hulls go, reference the Federal hulls in Lyman’s second and go from there. First, get the book!

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Last edited by casonet on Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:51 am 
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Federal papers act very much like any other straight wall hull, so using Federal papers isn’t really necessary. I kinda like Federal Top Gun hulls with the paper basewad. There are many others, all are going to give similar results.

You can use the Winchester hulls but, with card and fibers they act just like they do with plastic wads, less payload at higher pressures and less velocity than a straight wall hull will give you. Not that it is a big deal, but for hunting loads, depending on your requirements it does limit you to a certain degree.

There are sources for fiber loads other than Lyman 2. I believe Ballistic Products may have info, at one time Precision Reloading did also. I would start with those two companies.

If you want to have some loads tested, find a load with a plastic wad you like. Use the same hull, primer, powder and and payload weight. Substitute the plastic wad with a nitro card, and the correct thickness of fiber wad(s) to build wad column and add 1 to 3 grains more powder than the plastic wad load required. A good starting point to send to the lab would be, 1 grain for target powders, 3 grains for the real slow burning powders and somewhere in between for the rest.

Wad pressure is no big deal with fiber wads. If there is no recommendation then use 30 to 40 lbs. of wad pressure. Sometimes with the slower burning powders there is a set value, adjust your press accordingly.

A single stage press is sometimes a bit easier to load card/fiber wads on than a progressive.

None of this is rocket science.....Have fun with it!

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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:03 am 
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Two items,

If you choose to use the Winchester hulls, use the 12 gauge card and fiber wads. Yes the Winchester hull is smaller in the tapered section, but the rest of the hull and the bore of your shotgun need the large 12 gauge size.

If you have never used fiber wads before, I would find some type of paper wrapper for the shot, unless you really like cleaning lead from the bore of your shotgun.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:24 pm
Posts: 122
Location: Boston, Ma. USA
Thanks for the info, every one.

Not gonna load these with fibre wads. I’ll find another use for them. I’ll buy, and shoot a case of Federal, or RST, and save those hulls.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
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Location: UK, England, Britain
Flairball wrote:
cookoff013 wrote:
Euro hulls reload fibre ok. Ive used them nearly exclusive all my life


So, is the Win AA considered a Euro hull? Can I load them with a fibre wad?


Nope. But its the shape of the internal of the hull. As euro hulls are perfect shape for this. Some hulls are shaped internally and have select components to accomidate this. Not to mention powder volume.
Euro hulls appear to offer some advantages in this case


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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
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the hull walls themselves are straight.
if your powder fluffs up enough to cover that base tapered section inserting a fiber wad should pose no problems.

since you have some of the hulls in hand, make a slit you can see through down the side of a hull.
IOW cut a strip of material away about 3mm wide.
put a wad in the hull and see where it ends up.
measure below for available powder volume and above for shot volume.
I'm sure the wad lengths are negotiable but you now have a start point to work from.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:03 pm 
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I'll take a stab at the OP's questions.

Is the new AA hulls a Euro type hull. No, they're a hybrid design that Winchester came up with trying to match the old AA compression hulls. Made like Euro hulls, but act like tapered hulls for reloading. So they do reload somewhat like the old compression AA's, but have a different internal volume that requires adjusting the load or you will have crimp problems using the old AA CF loading data.

Can you use fiber wads. I don't see why not if you can find AA CF load data using the wads of choice and take the time to adjust the shot capacity (down) until the crimps are correct. The few pellets removed from the load for adjustment won't cause missed targets/birds if you shoot straight.

Do not use Euro hull load data since the special base wad makes these hulls more closely match the old compression formed AA's or the present day Remington hulls. All of this type of hull use less powder than a true straight walled "Euro" hull for the same pressure/speeds. So a dangerous load can be made up using straight wall loading data.

If you can't find a proper load then make up shells on your own then you need to have them tested for pressure prior to trying to shoot them in a gun.

One of the local gun clubs near me requires fiber wads on their ranges and they do sell fiber wad shells, at a bit steep price, if you show up with plastic wad shells.

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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Republican got it right. Yes, last time I heard, Winchester was still a USA company. Can you use fiber wads in them? Of course! I started reloading before Win. AA hulls existed. There were no tapered wall hulls in existence that I am aware of. I didn't have any plastic wads when I got my first AA hulls so I used fiber wads, with the same data as paper hulls as my reloading machine maker advised. The reverse is not true. You should not load any hull with plastic wads using fiber wad data. I hesitate to say never but every early reloading data source I have seen that has booth data for plastic wads & fiber wads lists the powder charge for fiber wads as higher to achieve the same velocity. Any data listed for a plastic wad will invariably run less pressure with fiber wads! Plastic wads are more efficient because they seal gases better which increases pressure. Put another way, paper wads leak like a rubber duck. It is said there is an exception to everything but if there is an exception to that, I have no clue what it could be. A AA hull will usually run higher pressure than two piece hulls because it seals gas better. With fiber wads it likely is an insignificant difference but I would stick with AA data to be safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Hull question/confusion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:29 pm 
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BTW, with fiber wads, you don't adjust the shot charge, you adjust the wad column!




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