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 Post subject: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:34 pm 
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To show what battles gun owners face from unlikely fronts, an appeals court in Pennsylvania has ruled the 2005 Protection of Lawful Commerce in Firearms in Interstate Commerce Act (PLCCA) entirely void, under the 10th Amendment.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/crime ... 2009290126

The plaintiffs son was accidentally shot and killed by another boy who “didn’t know the gun was loaded”. But evidently the pistol did not have a magazine safety, which the plaintiff argued would have prevented the accident. The defendant Springfield Armory raised the 2005 PLCCA ad obtained relief at the lower court level but the appeals court reversed and remanded to the trial court with instructions the entire PLCCA is unconstitutional under the 10th Amendment.

Using a 10th amendment argument is a a hallmark of “conservatives” to try and invalidate federal laws, but it hardly ever works.

You’d think there is an important interest of Congress to protect the seller of a lawful product in interstate commerce from liability except if the product is actually defective, and breaks or blows up.

Also there should be Second Amendment grounds to uphold the law.

I’d venture this case is far from over.



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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:24 am 
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This was a very strange ruling. The 10th Amendment is primarily what keeps Feds out of intrastate issues, and perhaps if the plaintiff were only suing the retailer that might work. But the plaintiff is suing an out-of-state business, making it pretty clearly an interstate issue.

Similarly, as pointed out, if a state court can invalidate a Federal law, that really opens the door to all kinds of mischief from taxes and selective service to environmental and traffic safety regs.

I don't know what the process will look like, but this case has a long way to go before it gets decided.


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:56 am 
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A Pennsylvania Democrat.This is why few believes in the concept of a independent unbiased judiciary. They are elected or appointed because of there political leanings. Tump went full on conservative, Obama left leaners only. Its amazing it works at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:00 pm 
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Lack of common sense should not be grounds for claiming defective equipment or lack of warning.

My automobile didn't come with any warnings not to drive over/off a 100 foot cliff, but common sense tells me not to do that. My set of screwdrivers didn't come with a warning not to stick the sharp end into my eyeball, but common sense tells me not to do that.

Likewise, it shouldn't be necessary for a firearm to come with a warning not to point it at someone and pull the trigger unless you intend to kill or seriously injure them, but common sense should tell them not to do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:34 pm 
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"Common sense" being the ultimate oxymoron.


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:36 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:02 pm 
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oyeme wrote:
“Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire


Agree, but a gun manufacturer shouldn't be liable for a gun doing exactly what it was designed to do... i.e. fire a round when you have a live round in the chamber and pull the trigger with the safety off.

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:52 pm 
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The gun is always loaded.

Common sense, "Treat every firearm as though it were loaded". It says so first page of the owner's manual that with the gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:20 am 
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At the shooter’s club earlier in the week, my unloaded Ruger Flattop Blackhawk 44 Special slipped out of the holster while I was putting my range bag in the rear seat, and hit the gravel directly on the hammer. Nobody’s fault but mine. The gun was not damaged, only my pride.

But because dropping a single action revolver is such a common screw up, since 1973 Ruger has added a transfer bar safety to it’s products. Colt, has not.

Every automatic pistol Ruger has made for years (except the 1911) has a loaded chamber indicator and a magazine safety. A loaded chamber indicator might not have been noticed (probably not, is a better word) but a magazine safety likely would have prevented the Gustafson accident. So would common sense and proper gun handling. Every gun should be treated as loaded all the time, and no safety is absolutely reliable.

But what right is found in the constitution that Congress can use the commerce’s clause to shield less careful manufacturers of guns from liability from a state court tort action? The opinion quotes Scalia and reads like it’s written by a strict constructionist.

https://law.justia.com/cases/pennsylvan ... -2019.html

The Gustafson opinion mainly relies on United States vs Lopez, where a 5-4 majority of SCOTUS invalidated the 1990 Gun Free Schools Act because it exceeded the limits of the commerce clause.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez

There ain’t nothing simple, as the little boy said.

Read the opinion.

There’s a good federalism argument to be made here.

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:33 pm 
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With the change in government the JD might just stop supporting it. But we all know that “ justice “ is not political.

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:27 pm 
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LILGUY wrote:
With the change in government the JD might just stop supporting it. But we all know that “ justice “ is not political.


Until now this was a private lawsuit, in state court in Pennsylvania. The justice department wouldn’t have been involved.

Pennsylvania has two lower level appeal courts, and this ruling was made by what reads to be an extremely conservative judge of a 3 judge panel.

Springfield Armory might settle the case.

Or they might appeal to the full Superior Court.

They might appeal to a Federal appeals court, and ultimately to the Supreme Court.

But the 10th amendment is a favorite of the far right, and anathema to the far left.

In the Lopez case, it was the right wing of SCOTUS that overturned Lopez’s conviction and Congress immediately fixed the law.

In this case the Pennsylvania legislature could also pass a law limiting gun manufacturers liability, but the question here is by what right the United States congress could find commerce clause grounds to protect private gunmakers from private lawsuits in state courts.

I wonder which Springfield Armory pistol it was?

Making a 1911 clone with no magazine safety or loaded chamber indicator is one thing.

But making a modern Glock clone without magazine safety or loaded chamber indicator is another.

Even if the ruling stands, Springfield Armory is entitled to a jury trial and defenses, such as not having a magazine safety is not unreasonably dangerous.

Here’s a ruling, to watch go through the legal process.

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:45 am 
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The flood gates will open and the courts will be used to kill off civilian gun ownership, happily, enthusiastically, by the left.

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania appeals court rules PLCCA unconstitutional
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:56 pm 
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LILGUY wrote:
The flood gates will open and the courts will be used to kill off civilian gun ownership, happily, enthusiastically, by the left.


Or else the gun makers will adopt safety improvements out of fear of liability.

A prime example is the Colt 1873 Peacemaker.

Drop a loaded one and the sear notch is likely to break and hurt or kill somebody.

Every copy of a Peacemaker has some variation of a hammer block safety to avoid that.

Here’s my beloved 1873 Taylor. It has a little steal “flipper” on the hammer that helps protect the user from the gun firing if dropped. It still says C-O-L-T when you draw back the hammer. It retails for a third of the price of a real Colt.

Image
https://imgur.com/gallery/iIRZF6N

My Ruger Flattop Blackhawks have an internal transfer bar hammer safety, that accomplishes the same thing.

Magazine safeties came out with the 1935 Browning Hi Power. Smith and Wesson and Ruger have used them for years on all semi auto pistols except for 1911 copies. Adding one costs the maker a dollar or two, at most.

The federal government might have a commerce clause interest in passing a liability protection law if they had a regulatory approval agency for firearms safety, but the situation here is that Congress has prevented the states from using their tort laws to shield Springfield Armory from adding a common safety device to their pistols.

It appears an extremely conservative panel of judges in Pennsylvania have cried foul.

It is also a sad case. The kid should have acted like the gun was loaded, but he didn’t, and he killed his friend. If the gun had been a Ruger or Smith we’d never have heard about this.

There are arguments against magazine safeties. They render the de magazined gun worthless in a gun fight. They can stick and disable the gun. A slightly ajar magazine puts the gun out of commission.

But by what clause in the constitution does Congress have the right to tell Pennsylvania the plaintiff can’t make a case in Pennsylvania that the benefits to putting them on all concealed hammer semi autos outweigh any negatives?

A separate issue is the lack of a loaded chamber indicator.

But without a loaded chamber indicator or magazine safety, the kid discovered the gun was hot when he pulled the trigger.

It makes me rethink my support of the current Congressional act that protects the gun makers from having to make safer products.



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