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 Post subject: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:31 am 
Hi All,

I have a Citori 12 gauge I use for all my shotgun shooting; skeet, clays, ducks, geese, pheasants, etc. I have had the gun for about 3 years and have put about 1000 round through it.

The trigger mechanism sometimes fails to reset to the second barrel in cold weather. It is a very annoying problem because it happens when I am hunting where shots at game are rarely repeatable.

I expect that the problem would go away if I cleaned the trigger reset mechanism, however, I would expect it to eventually return, as well. I don't want removing the stock to clean the trigger to be part of the gun's regular maintenance requirements. Plus, I want to make sure that the resetting failure never happens again.

To alleviate the problem, I am considering converting the trigger mechanism from inertial resetting to mechanical resetting. However, I am concerned that such a conversion would cause a change in the trigger feel such as a "squishy," stiffer, or longer trigger pull.

Can anyone comment on their experience with an inertial to mechanical trigger conversion, and whether there was a change to the trigger feel?




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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:40 pm
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I recommend a teardown by a gunsmith to see if you have a problem. I put over ten times that amount through mine before EVER getting into the works.

There may be a burr or something loose in the works that's causing the failure to reset. If you put a big, hot load through the gun will it reset?

Will it reset if you swap barrel modes to UO from OU (or however you keep it normally) order?

Have a smith check it, let him know what's going on. A Citori shouldn't do this, and probably when he's done it won't any more.

Your gun's sick. Take it in and get it better. With a gun that well made it normally is that simple. I can tell you for CERTAIN it's not a design flaw. Mine cycles 28ga about 80-90% of the time with no problems, the gun was designed for 12 so that's saying something! I am having the trigger converted so this is no longer an issue, but I'm also shooting a LOT less oomph than you are.

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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:21 pm 
The loads that it fails to reset on are always heavy hunting loads. (I tend to encounter the colder weather when hunting).

The last time it failed was on Remington's 3" shells with 1 1/4 ounce of Hevishot at "magnum dram equivalent." There must be a serious obstruction in the mechanism if a magnum load won't reset it.

I almost always shoot the lower barrel first when I am hunting, so I am not sure whether it would also fail to reset if I were to shoot the upper barrel first.

I have had more than a few shots ruined by the reset failure. It sure puts a damper on a hunt when you don't have much confidence in your gun. I am leaning towards the trigger conversion simply so I don't have to think about the problem anymore.

Other than the trigger resetting problem, I love the gun, and so want to work out the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 1420
What makes you think somebody's mechanical conversion will be any more reliable than browning's factory inertia setup (which has probably a few BILLION rounds through it worldwide)? I'm not speaking for the case of your reset issue, I mean in general?

Get the inertia setup right the way Browning intended it to be. Read the "Trap and Skeet" forum about the coldest shoot. That inertia setup in my SSC kept going at -40 and even colder. There is nothing wrong with the design.

I advise against the mechanical conversion. As it stands now you have a browning inertia setup which any smith should be comfortable with and Browning may even have fixed for free (have you called / emailed / written them?). Let the company do their thing, they're good people with a good product.

If you're set on a mechanical conversion, do it. It's your money. However, I have heard enough horror stories about conversions to be hesitant to recommend it from all but the very best smith.

If you're not going to call Browning at least call Briley down here in TX and see what they have to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:58 pm 
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javven wrote:
What makes you think somebody's mechanical conversion will be any more reliable than browning's factory inertia setup (which has probably a few BILLION rounds through it worldwide)? I'm not speaking for the case of your reset issue, I mean in general?


The Browning single trigger system is a relatively old design.

It is a very well proven design.

I have never heard of any chronic problems with them barring tinkering, some kind of crud in them or severe corossion. They just seem to work. I have owned two trap Citoris and shot them quite a bit in temperatures from 10F to 95F, their triggers were never an issue.

IMHO, this one sounds like it just needs to be looked at and all that may be required is a careful clean and light lube.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:27 pm 
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Thanks for your replies.

I don't know much about the mechanical reset triggers, except I heard that it was more reliable. My initial concern was with a bad tigger feel. Are there other "bad" things that can happen with a mechanical reset trigger?

--Twofer


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:40 pm
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Yeah it might never work right.

Probably it would. As to 'trigger feel' I don't think this is enough of an issue with a shotgun to worry about it. As long as it's reasonably smooth and lets off at a weight you can comfortably pull, it's fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:16 pm 
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I didn't realize I would get such strong opinions against the trigger conversion, and that people would have such confidence in the Browning inertial mechanism - I appreciate the remarks.

Considering the strong opinion against the conversion, I will limit myself to getting the trigger mechanism cleaned and adjusted for better functioning.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:26 pm 
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Twofer,

I would bet money (and give good odds) that the problem isn't in the inertia trigger system. The problem is the shooter and the heavy gloves you wear in cold weather. In all likelihood, you are "trapping" the trigger. In other words, when you pull the trigger, you are not releasing it fully. You must fully release the trigger after the first shot in order for the trigger to reset to the second barrel.

Try this test. Leave the gun outside in your car trunk in cold weather. Go out in the morning and break open the action fully and then close it. Pull the trigger. The hammer should fall on the first barrel. Then take the gun down from your shoulder and give it a moderate rap on the bottom of the recoil pad with the heel of your hand. Don't do it real hard, just moderate. Then put the gun to your shoulder and pull the trigger again. The hammer for the second barrel should fall. If it does, then this is proof, IMO, that the problem is in the shooter trapping the trigger.

Don't feel bad about this. Lots of new shooters buy a new O/U and take it out for some shooting in warm weather and the same thing happens. You MUST fully release the trigger after the first shot in order for the gun to set the second hammer.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:51 pm
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I have a few Browning shotguns converted to mechanical triggers, work all done by Briley. Reasoning is myself shooting 410 in tubes. Never had any problems. Saying that, I've loan inertia trigger Brownings to friends to shoot sporting clays with me, and some do have the problems of the trigger resetting. The problems were all the shooter's errors, as explain by Ulysess. Anther problem were my friends not shoudering the guns. My friends always blamed the problem on the shotguns. Funny I never had the problem with those inertia shotguns........ :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:37 pm 
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. . . so it is likely I am impugning the Citori trigger system, while the problem more likely lies with the operator . . . I am going to go apologize to my gun now.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:40 pm
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Hehe. Normally (at least for me), recoil moves the gun far enough rearward that I need make no conscious effort to reset.

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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:36 pm 
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The inertia trigger system is just fine, and should work flawlessly. As has been stated, see what Browning or a good gunsmith has to say.

The most common reason for mechanical trigger conversions is skeet shooting with tubes; the .410, and sometimes the 28 ga, don't have enough recoil to reset the trigger.

The only other possible shortcoming is that with an inertia trigger, you could have a misfire on the first barrel, and then would have no second shot - but what are the chances of that?


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:24 pm 
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Twofer, I am glad you are apologizing to your shotgun. :) :) I hope it accepts. From reading your first post, I saw that the problem was not there all the time so the "trunk test" would prove nothing. I would contact Browning and speak to a tech. They have run into everything imaginable. I am sure it can be fixed for less cost than the conversion. Good luck to you and Merry Christmas.

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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:43 pm 
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Twofer wrote:
I didn't realize I would get such strong opinions against the trigger conversion, and that people would have such confidence in the Browning inertial mechanism


Actually, in my case I am just giving credit where credit is due, the design has been around a long time and rarely gives problems; these things are pretty well established.

I have a Remington Peerless as well and they have a mechanical trigger since they were made that way. My Peerless has seen a fair amount of skeet and some sporting clays use. I have never had any problems or issues with it either.

In function, when concentrating on targets I find I am too "dull" :oops: to feel any difference in function between the two. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:21 pm 
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Customstox wrote:
From reading your first post, I saw that the problem was not there all the time so the "trunk test" would prove nothing. I would contact Browning and speak to a tech. They have run into everything imaginable. I am sure it can be fixed for less cost than the conversion.




Actually, I think that the "trunk test" WOULD prove something if it were done correctly. It is possible that the inertia mechanism is covered in a heavy grease that would become even thicker in cold weather causing the inertia system to not work correctly in cold weather. If that was the case, then I would suggest that he remove the buttstock and clean the trigger works thoroughly and then relubricate with a lightweight oil or thin grease. The other possibility is that he will discover that he has in fact been trapping the trigger. Either way, he is likely to find out what the problem is without having to box up the gun and send it off to Browning. If he calls Browning (as you suggest) and describes the problem, I'm pretty sure that they are going to tell him to send the gun in so that they can check it out. If he does that, he may be without his gun for weeks or even several months. Why should he do this when it is quite likely, IMO, that he can discover and fix the problem himself without even picking up a wrench or screwdriver? Even if he should have to take off the buttstock to clean the trigger works, that is not a difficult task. I still think that my advice was valid and it costs him nothing to try it and find out. He can always send it in to Browning later if it turns out that the gun really does have a problem, but I'm betting that it doesn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:31 pm 
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I apologized to my shotgun. No hurt feelings there, athough, it did suggest I give the trigger reset mechanism a cleaning and a small amount of light oil that won't gum up in cold weather.

Accordingly, I will clean off the old lubricant and re-oil it. Can anyone tell me what are the critical surfaces of the reset mechanism to check for dirt or a burr, and which surfaces should be lubricated. Additionally, can anyone recommend a suitable lubricant for the reset mechanism. I am thinking a low-viscosity synthetic oil would be the best to insure good functioning in low tempertures.

By the way, I will put the gun in the trunk on the next cold night. It might be interesting to see what I learn from carefully cycling the trigger assembly in the cold.

Thanks everyone!


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:40 pm
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You'll want a very light coating of machine oil on the bearing surfaces. Break Free CLP works well. I'd just break-free the whole works but there may be a place where a heavier lube is required.

Contact Browning. If they tell you "Browning Oil" or whatever... just use Break Free. If they tell you something else (an actual gel-like grease) then use it.

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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2003 12:20 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:45 pm
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I don't know the technical stuff but I do know this.

I bought my Beretta O/U this year and sent it in to get the triggers adjusted so I could shoot shotgun poppers if needed for dog training. When they sent it back it resets shooting snap caps. They did this for free for me and trigger is inertia, somehow they adjusted it that low.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori inertial to mechanical trigger conversion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2003 9:58 pm 
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Twofer,

A few weeks ago I had a problem with the second barrel of my Citori XS Skeet not firing. It was during a very cold Monday night Skeet league and it happened twice on Station 1 doubles.

At first, I thought the gun was malfunctioning. After all, this had never happened before. I assumed the gun was either broken or the cold was affecting the trigger mechanism. After some testing on a trap field, I determined the failure not a failure at all and that it was my fault the gun did not fire.

How was it my fault? I was not letting the trigger out enough after the first shot. Why was this a problem all of a sudden? Well, my finger got so cold that when I relaxed it like I usually do, the return spring pressure from the trigger was unable to move my finger enough to allow the top barrel firing system to be selected.

The solution? Keep my hand in my pocket when I wasn't shooting. The problem has not happened since.

I suspect that your gun is fine as well.....

Scott




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