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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:21 am 
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the_phew wrote:
Then Zoli and Guerini dumped a pile of $ marketing in the U.S., and now we consider them to be reputable mid-high end shotguns. Same actions being manufactured in the same Brescia workshops as before (a stone's throw from F.A.I.R.'s workshop, with probably the same equipment, processes, parts designs, etc). I've read all these Brescia gunmakers even share employees/resources and do contract work for each other as the market ebbs and flows. I don't buy into marketing hype; history has taught us that Brescia O/Us are a known quantity, regardless of what name is engraved on the barrel.


Same workshops? Same equipment? That's quite a tall tale-- and has no relationship to the truth.




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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:29 am 
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the_phew wrote:
Thanks. I should also point out that Zoli and Fabarm/Guerini were in the same boat as F.A.I.R. not too long ago; popular in Europe but no marketing/support in the U.S. Just like F.A.I.R., they floundered about here letting other brands rebadge their guns to try to eek out a corner of the U.S. market, with the same disastrous results.

Then Zoli and Guerini dumped a pile of $ marketing in the U.S., and now we consider them to be reputable mid-high end shotguns. Same actions being manufactured in the same Brescia workshops as before (a stone's throw from F.A.I.R.'s workshop, with probably the same equipment, processes, parts designs, etc). I've read all these Brescia gunmakers even share employees/resources and do contract work for each other as the market ebbs and flows. I don't buy into marketing hype; history has taught us that Brescia O/Us are a known quantity, regardless of what name is engraved on the barrel. F.A.I.R. even seems to be making a more serious push on the marketing front in the U.S., so I wouldn't be surprised to see them become more mainstream very soon.
As Randy points out this is a long way from the current reality. It's true that years ago and long before Caesar Guerini existed, many smaller makers dropped their own action designs in favour of a variant of the "Rizzini" action. And it's also true that there was some cross pollination in that different factories spam in the production of particular parts such as barrels, thereby saving costs. The bulk of the output of these makers were used as low volume, low cost hunting guns for the Italian market. Today, most of the smaller Italian makers have been supplanted by Turkish producers meaning that only a handful are still in business and usually either as part of a bigger group such as FIAS or as just a brand name such as Franchi. FAIR is probably the biggest supplier into the local Italian market for hunting guns but CG, who decided on a significantly higher level of quality, performance and finishing and aimed their products squarely at the US market, produces far more guns overall.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:30 pm 
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Trickster wrote:
As Randy points out this is a long way from the current reality. It's true that years ago and long before Caesar Guerini existed, many smaller makers dropped their own action designs in favour of a variant of the "Rizzini" action. And it's also true that there was some cross pollination in that different factories spam in the production of particular parts such as barrels, thereby saving costs. The bulk of the output of these makers were used as low volume, low cost hunting guns for the Italian market. Today, most of the smaller Italian makers have been supplanted by Turkish producers meaning that only a handful are still in business and usually either as part of a bigger group such as FIAS or as just a brand name such as Franchi. FAIR is probably the biggest supplier into the local Italian market for hunting guns but CG, who decided on a significantly higher level of quality, performance and finishing and aimed their products squarely at the US market, produces far more guns overall.


I didn't claim to be discussing the the 'current reality'; I was just giving an example of how it has historically taken a serious marketing push (read: $$$) to go from regional Brescian shotgun merchant to success in the U.S. Heck, Antonio Zoli was selling cheap O/U shotguns through SEARS not that long ago, now folks are buying $10k shotguns from them. It's not like they were bashing Chinese pig iron with claw hammers to make their Sears guns before, it was the same Brescian gunmaking techniques that the whole region has practiced for generations. Zoli just does it on more expensive guns now.

Is it not true that the Guerini brothers grew up working for their uncle B. Rizzini in the same workshops that now produce F.A.I.R. and B. Rizzini shotguns? But apparently some folks on here would have us believe that the Guerini brand was created in 7 days and 7 nights earlier in the millennium by the Savior of Shotguns or something. In fact it was something even more mystical than that; the magic of MARKETING! They figured out that Americans go ape for long warranties and 'free' service (nevermind that both are priced in!). And of course it helps that they make great guns, too (no one makes a POS O/U for $5k, though).

F.A.I.R. barely sells field O/Us in the U.S. anymore, having recently dedicated themselves to going after the entry-level B&B clays guns by offering more features for less money. It seems like a reasonable approach, since they convinced me to get a Carrera One HR over a 686 or Citori. I don't know if this gun will last 100k shells, but if I burned through $30k+ worth of shells/targets/fees I doubt I'd be pinching pennies about whether it required $2k, $3k, $4k, or $5k worth of shotguns and parts to do it; the gun would be in the noise of the overall cost.

So to recap, no, F.A.I.R. is not comparable to Guerini or Zoli, despite similarities/crossover in their respective heritages. Nor are they even trying to aim that high right now. But they are attacking weaknesses in the bottom of of B&B's lineups, and if they throw enough marketing support behind the effort, I think the products are good enough to succeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:21 pm 
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There is nothing magical, divine, mythic or simply "MARKETING!" about what the founders/owners of CG have done.
If it were their lone achievement, CG's founders/owners did in slightly less than 20 years what their uncles at the Rizzini companies have not been able to do: Land in and stay in the US market with a first-rate reputation for product support and customer service.
Hence, while I.Riz (FAIR) and B.Riz produced a lot of orphans -- of which two still live with me and are well loved -- CG has to date birthed none.
They nailed their niche, which Wes Lang has described as something between the mass-produced factory gun and the semi-customs. (I'd add they also found a colleague in Lang who has ably represented their US interests.)
Their vision of what was lacking in the market was spot on, and they turned their ideas on how to profitably fill that void into some rather lovely walnut and steel realities. Kudos to them. I don't think there's anything fawning or even unrealistic in appreciating what they've done.
I hope FAIR's plans, whatever they are actually are, are wildly successful in the US and their new importer relationship is lastingly successful. Competition across (and at the ends of) the price-point spectrum is ultimately good for the gunning consumer.
That said, I see no great parallel in what FAIR and B. Riz have yet to do and what CG has done. I don't dismiss or demean CG's accomplishments as the result of the term marketing applied with derision, nor do I believe their success is the result of naive or gullible buyers.
They build really good guns. Americans buy 'em. CG stands behind 'em.
It ain't exactly a tragedy.
What's a tragedy is that I don't have the checkbook balance to pick up one, tow or three of 'em!

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Last edited by MGF on Thu May 09, 2019 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:30 am 
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Yes, it is hardly "marketing."

Ruger has stepped up their marketing. However, the estimated unit sell-through of its products from independent distributors to retailers dropped 32% from last year, Ruger said, while federal background checks fell 8%. Ruger stock dropped 6.93% yesterday.

It is hard to miss all of the Vista Outdoor / Federal marketing efforts. They keep losing money, though, with their stock plummeting from over $17 a share to under $9 a share within the last year.

S & W has dropped from over $15 a share to $9.40 per share within the last year. Just marketing does not provide all the answers.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 6:23 am 
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Phew, A solid product makes every marketer look good. But most marketers struggle with commodity products and can’t achieve price based on my experience working at a fortune 100 company. A brand new real estate agent can sell a nice house in a hot neighborhood easily whereas even seasoned ones will struggle with crappy houses in crappy neighborhoods. If marketing works such magic, how come marketers can’t sell shotguns with 26 in tubes like hot cakes in today’s market? Why didn’t you buy one of these modern orphans instead of the feature set you did? You bought price on a feature set you wanted. Ie product. Nothing wrong with FAIR guns as I have two orphaned Veronas. They slot above most of the Turkey stuff and at JP SKB level and touch below the B guns at there (FAIR) entry level product. fAIR can make really nice guns (I look for the highest grades that were imported) but has not typically applied itself to that market. What’s nice about FAIR and it’s orphans is used they sell for cheap and no marketing will close that gap for a long time. You will find that out if and when you try to sell your current gun.
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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 8:29 am 
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Patently Obvious: Agreed, and I'm sort of glad "orphans" exist ... otherwise I'd own no shotguns as nice as my Sig TR30U in 20 gauge (a B.Riz made gun) and my NEA/FAIR LX900 in 16. Also, my Japanese SKB 585 is my favorite knockabout, all-purpose clays gun.
The only one for which there might be a recognizable resale market is likely the SKB, but it's going nowhere. Mine's a plain gun, but one that just keeps on trucking.
So, I guess I love my orphans. The FAIR is my favorite pheasant gun and the SKB gets a lot of use at the clay games.
I'd love my Sig-made gun more, but I'm a bigger fan of the 16 and the 28 than I am the 20. But it's an exquisite, trim and fast-handling field 20.
But, as you point out, I'd better love 'em, 'cause resale opportunities won't be grand.
That's sort of the conundrum of orphan guns: On one hand, you can pick up some hellacious buys. On the other, if you do want want to offload 'em, you're not going to recover a lot of cash.
I wish FAIR tons of good fortune. I generally really like 'em (have had four different variations). One of my orphans is even a "nephew" these days in that it's a Verona that lives with a brother. I get it back, though, if he ever decides to sell it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 9:21 am 
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Patently Obvious wrote:
Phew, A solid product makes every marketer look good.


It's a common misconception that marketing=advertising.

My wife is a product manager at a Fortune 500 company in the consumer discretionary sector (she has an MBA in marketing, and works in the marketing department of the company). Advertising/promotions are about the smallest part of her job description. She mostly:
1. Engages in market research to see what consumers+retailers want
2. Oversees the design+engineering of products that meet consumer demand
3. Builds the supply chain to manufacture those products
4. Cultivates the retail channels to sell the products

When I say 'marketing', the above is what I mean.

When it comes to O/Us, the engineering/supply chains/manufacturing tooling+equipment+techniques/etc are very mature. So companies mostly differentiate on how feature sets are packaged/priced, design, warranty+support, and retail channels. Guerini hit it out of the park in all four of those arenas, so they are now firmly established in the U.S.A. (Zoli is also coming up right behind them).

I think F.A.I.R.'s latest clay gun offerings in the U.S. succeeded at the first challenge (differentiating on features+price), and the design is 'fair' if generic-looking (it looks like a morph between a 686 and a Citori, incidentally the two competitors they are clearly targeting). Their 3-year warranty is just 'good enough' to run with B&B on paper, although the jury is still out on how the actual warranty repair process compares (B&B both probably earn no better than a C on that front, so the bar is low). Retail channels are weak, frankly (it's basically online-only, and just Wholesale Hunter+the LGS that use the Gearfire inventory system). Even the LGS that list the Carrera One on their website via Gearfire mostly don't even know they sell that gun (I know, I've asked), and good luck finding one to shoulder in any LGS.

I've been watching the inventory numbers on Wholesale Hunter, and they do seem to sell a Carrera One every couple days. Which surely isn't enough to keep the operation alive, but the High Rib has only been out a couple months, so maybe they'll pick up steam there. But their brick&mortar retail presence is dismal, which they need to correct ASAP.

If my F.A.I.R. becomes an orphan, at least it'll remain unique! It only needs to last through 5k shells or so to amortize out to be cheaper than the shells it fired+clays it broke. I fully expect to do MUCH better than that. Heck, I'm almost 15% there in the 6 weeks I've had the shotgun. At this pace (seasonally-adjusted), the shotgun will have amortized to about $0.15/shot at the time when the warranty expires, so even if it dies that day, I can live with that.

I finally figured out how to embed videos here, so here's my Carrera One HR in action:

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Last edited by the_phew on Thu May 09, 2019 12:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 9:27 am 
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See the history of SKB / Weatherby, Fausti / Traditions, Fausti / Weatherby, Zoli / Marlin, B. Rizzini / SigArms, Sabatti / Remington, Fair / Savage, Bettinsoli / Franchi, etc., etc., etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:30 am 
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Comparing mid-high end Italian gunmakers to US rifle/pistol manufacturers (that IIRC do not currently manufacture O/U’s) is apples-to-oranges. It’s common knowledge that the absolute best “marketing” Ruger and S&W ever had was the eight years of BHO in the White House as exhibited by their share values during that time period.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:40 am 
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mea culpa wrote:
It’s common knowledge that the absolute best “marketing” Ruger and S&W ever had was the eight years of BHO in the White House as exhibited by their share values during that time period.


Not to get political, but I was talking to the owner of a LGS at a party and said "you must be a huge Obama fan", due to the fact you mention. Of course I knew beforehand that he very much was not, but I was fishing for a glint of self-awareness. He just looked at me blankly, so swing and a miss there.

Back on topic, it is interesting that every time a regional Brescian O/U manufacturer tries to sell ~$1.5k shotguns in the U.S., they typically fall on their face. But recent attempts to enter the market with $5k+ shotguns have been much more successful. American consumers are odd ducks.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:22 am 
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I'd suggest the regional Italian makers "fall on their face" in the O/U entry market because they cannot (or will not) sustain the effort. B.Riz and FAIR have both sold plenty of shotguns in the US, but they come up short on US product and customer service support.
Hence, a bunch of us are running around with "orphan" guns, sometimes gladly so 'cause of the "distressed" prices.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:26 pm 
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It’s cause O/U guns at the 1.5 k price point are commodity items. Lots of competition and if you don’t have a strong brand name and strong US support there is no reason to pick up an obscure one once one of the big guys rolls out its frequent rebates. It’s not a low enough price point to attract the value crowd under 1K and it’s just the starting price point of something that’s good enough for competition so they will stick with Browning. Resale is easy, service even if not factory warranty is easy, parts is easy, and longevity is not a question. I know of only one US gunsmith that works on Fair stuff and stocks FAIR parts etc to keep the old veronas etc going. Look in my threads for Basil Slaughter. Plus consumers that have been around see these guys come and go and will not make the leap for a few hundred dollars cost saving. I have two lifetime warranty guns with a worthless warranty. But guns ain’t that complicated and any decent Smith can fix em IF they can get parts. If you have to make parts it’s aint worth it usually.


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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:55 pm 
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Patently Obvious wrote:
It’s cause O/U guns at the 1.5 k price point are commodity items. Lots of competition and if you don’t have a strong brand name and strong US support there is no reason to pick up an obscure one once one of the big guys rolls out its frequent rebates. It’s not a low enough price point to attract the value crowd under 1K and it’s just the starting price point of something that’s good enough for competition so they will stick with Browning. Resale is easy, service even if not factory warranty is easy, parts is easy, and longevity is not a question. I know of only one US gunsmith that works on Fair stuff and stocks FAIR parts etc to keep the old veronas etc going. Look in my threads for Basil Slaughter. Plus consumers that have been around see these guys come and go and will not make the leap for a few hundred dollars cost saving. I have two lifetime warranty guns with a worthless warranty. But guns ain’t that complicated and any decent Smith can fix em IF they can get parts. If you have to make parts it’s aint worth it usually.


The man is spot-on, IME.
The upside for some us is that B.Riz (and I'd argue FAIR, too) can make a danged useful field gun. I consider both my 20 and my 16 -- one by B.Riz, one by FAIR exceptionally trim, light and fast-handling field guns, and pretty nice looking, to boot.
Had 'em fit to me ... now have bird guns I love to walk with that I otherwise could not have afforded.
The risk, as Patently Obvious notes, is if a non-standard part goes down ...
But, so far anyway, orphan guns from B.Riz (three of the Sig TR series) and a few of the 16s from FAIR have done very well for myself and my two brothers.
And while I can't speak to B.Riz, one thing FAIR did do that not a lot of other makers were doing was make a well-scaled and light O/U in 16.

Will the smaller-maker, Brescia-pattern guns hold up as dedicated clays guns?
Don't have the background to say with any certainty, as I'm an admitted casual clays shooter who might put 100 to 200 rounds downrange on a given weekend...and not all weekends, at that.
I suspect the B.Riz, FAIRs, etc would not hold up for a high-volume shooter the way their Bs, Ks, Ps and CGs do.
My all-purpose knockabout clays guns are an SKB 585 with 30" pipes for which I bought some extended chokes and an SX-1 that I had Mike Orlen thread.
Also sort of "bargain" guns (for what you get, at least) but bargain guns of a different sort. I think both are likely to outlast me.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 2:19 pm 
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Has there been any evidence that owners of 'orphan' F.A.I.R.s (Verona, Milano, I. Rizzini, etc) were denied the opportunity to purchase parts directly from Italy? Those actions look damn near identical to the current ones, and heck, most other Brescian actions. My gun has several identical-looking parts to current B. Rizzini guns, for instance.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 11:39 am 
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So I called James at IFG (U.S. distributor for F.A.I.R. and some other Italian brands, in Amarillo TX) to order some choke tubes for my Carrera One HR. Super nice guy. He shared some anecdotes with me that may be relevant to the forum:
-They can't ship enough F.A.I.R. SxSs here; folks go crazy for the Iside (in 28ga especially, which is on a 20ga frame, <6lbs)
-The O/Us (like mine) are moving slowly in comparison, but they haven't been selling them here for long
-They recently tore down a customer's 12ga 'Racing' model O/U with ~65k shells through it, and nothing even needed replacing yet, although they did replace some parts since they had it disassembled anyway
-The only part that he says has broken with any regularity on customers' O/Us is the cocking wedge on the forend (I can see why; this part looks a little flimsy on my gun), but he says keep that oiled and it should be fine
-He claimed the tolerances on these shotguns are so tight that they don't even need hand work during initial assembly; he claims any random barrel will lock up tight with any random action. Might be typical sales guy hyperbole, although I don't plan to ever do such a test to find out.

Anyway, take it FWIW.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:10 pm 
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There is a fella up here that has ordered an extra set of barrels for his Iside, he bought a combo unit 9.3x74r/20ga and now has a 7x57r set coming, so there may be something to the tolerances they manufacture to being pretty solid. All he had to give them was the gun s/n. From what I can see they are pushing midrange priced guns that have a pretty decent features vs value factor. They may not be as nicely finished as some others that are a bit higher priced, but the features offered at that price point are pretty good. I just picked up an Iside Vintage 20ga hammergun, decent deal in what it offers, as the only others offered up here that I've seen are the CZ/Huglu and the Pedersoli and the Baikals and Stoegers. And apparently they are now offering a 28 and 16ga. They seem to be thinking out of the box a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:53 pm 
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I've been seeking to purchase an Iside Prestige Tartaruga Gold SXS. However, the road has been most difficult. Research has been ongoing for a year as the only importer is in Texas with little information to be obtained. In speaking with James, he mentioned much in the way of the Rizzini's, the one lane it Italy: but provided to elaborate on any specifics; namely the configurations of the shotgun, or any in depth technical specifications. James merely followed the company line of not giving away any information, only to sell merchandise. This type of business management is not aligned with those versed in the field. More so, James thought everything was comical and specifically stated: "No one wants a gun with F.A.I.R. on it". I did take offense to that remark.

James stated he had four of the aforesaid model in stock with the features I was seeking: 12 gauge fitted with a 28" barrel. I asked him to send pictures which he said would be sent within half an hour. After three hours passed, I called James as he said he would send them. Personally, this is a lackluster attitude, uncaring to assist others in a timely fashion. There really was no reason why the pictures were not sent within the allotted time. There could be other factors here but I shall not divulge anything further at this point.

When the pictures were sent, there were very few, actually four. I was interested in the stock as most are when purchasing a high price item. When I viewed the stock, one side was completely different than the other, almost; if not showing severe signs of a large growth or knot. This was very unsightly for a very fine shotgun that incorporates better technical specifications than the Beretta Paralello, in my personal opinion: i.e. > the Iside has coil springs as opposed to the V springs on the Beretta, a replaceable hinge pin whereas the Beretta is fixed, and once broken, 'good luck'. No safety ( I hate safeties) on the Iside but safey on the Beretta which displays two red dots left and one red dot right. Move the selector on the Beretta to the right and the dot shows left and vice-versa, only with two red dots. The Iside is straight forward: Move selector 'right' and moves right. The trigger pull on the Iside is claimed to be 3 1/2 lbs (Excellent) as opposed to a 5 1/2 lb.squeeze for the Beretta. The engraving on the Iside is cut deeper and polished than the Paralello whereby the engraving on the Beretta is 'not' smooth. I would believe that many know of these features.

Back to Texas, where James offered no assistance, just rambling on about shotguns and Italy. James made no mention of the Grade C wood the shotgun was displaying, nor did he make mention of the gold signature seal at the bottom of the Butt stock. There is much more, but I'm sure all the experts here most likely are aware of the facts.

As contacting Moira Facchini, she provided Justin Dodd's email. The countryside of Brescia's walkway is on vacation for the month of August, so I'll have to wait to proceed further. Anyway, sent an email to Justin (CEO) who responded in a very unprofessional way. Justin said he monitored the conversation with James as I did as well. Justin's words were intertwined with falsity, trying to use a convoluted approach. The fact is, I can corroborate every word verbatim as I stated this in my return email, along with his unbecoming demeanor in which he stated," as is our standard, Use another dealer in your area" > from the CEO! No return call was ever returned by James or email that I sent after the p;ictures were viewed by me. Justin tried to state otherwise in his email but "Every word has been established and recorded". Not any can find an out for that fact. Justin never, not ever responded back to my email.

The bottom line is I contacted an authorized dealer ( will not mention his name) and "not" in Texas. This person was highly professional, courteous and provided me with all the technical details in that I were aware of some, not all. He answered all my emails and calls as he has told me to contact him in September when the workers return to the trade. This person is highly regarded and has the credentials to prove it. The trade we're speaking of is not for the faint, and there are many snakes among the gun crowd; growing each day. The person I spoke with is honest and upfront, hiding nothing. To meet someone like this in this line of work is almost non-existent. If I were to purchase; hopefully I will, contingent upon some technical points, it would be from this person, no other. Actually, his name is John, so if any know who I am speaking, this is he.

All replies are most welcome, especially from the experts.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:31 pm 
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Why not share the name and location of the dealer who treated you well?

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Shotguns
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:34 pm 
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Synoptic 12 wrote:
I've been seeking to purchase an Iside Prestige Tartaruga Gold SXS. However, the road has been most difficult. Research has been ongoing for a year as the only importer is in Texas with little information to be obtained. In speaking with James, he mentioned much in the way of the Rizzini's, the one lane it Italy: but provided to elaborate on any specifics; namely the configurations of the shotgun, or any in depth technical specifications. James merely followed the company line of not giving away any information, only to sell merchandise.

There really was no reason why the pictures were not sent within the allotted time. There could be other factors here but I shall not divulge anything further at this point.

When the pictures were sent, there were very few, actually four. I was interested in the stock as most are when purchasing a high price item. When I viewed the stock, one side was completely different than the other, almost; if not showing severe signs of a large growth or knot. This was very unsightly for a very fine shotgun that incorporates better technical specifications

Back to Texas, where James offered no assistance, just rambling on about shotguns and Italy. James made no mention of the Grade C wood the shotgun was displaying, nor did he make mention of the gold signature seal at the bottom of the Butt stock. There is much more, but I'm sure all the experts here most likely are aware of the facts.

As contacting Moira Facchini, she provided Justin Dodd's email. The countryside of Brescia's walkway is on vacation for the month of August, so I'll have to wait to proceed further. Anyway, sent an email to Justin (CEO) who responded in a very unprofessional way. Justin said he monitored the conversation with James as I did as well. Justin's words were intertwined with falsity, trying to use a convoluted approach.


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