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 Post subject: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:20 am 
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Hello all,

I have read numerous accounts regarding the Baikal IZH 27. I understand about the differences in opinion. Some like it, some find it 'good enough' and some refuse to consider a piece of Russian carp at any cost.

What I am curious about is how closely did Baikal copy the Superposed?

They list it as 'superposed' on their russian website.

I don't know the Superposed well, but only really know of two stand out differences: mechanical trigger that is selected by pushing trigger forward [instead of inertia with button on top for trigger selection] and selectable extractor/ejectors.

I understand that the Baikal doesn't have the fit/finish of the Superposed. I know many think the quality and durability are below entry grade.

And I know others say it is perfectly fine for a hunting gun, from their experiences.

One thing I started to notice was that Baikals were being put down for their bulky handling, esp when compared to Citori Lightnings or Citori 725s, or Berettas, etc.

Then I noticed a few people commending on the bulk and weight of the Browning Superposed and earlier Citori Hunters.

What I didn't see was someone who dismissed the Baikal for being too bulky and criticizing the pointing characteristics who then turned around and used the same criteria to apply to the Superposed.

So- can anyone tell me about design characteristics in comparing Baikal to Browning Superposed, and also compare handling characteristics?

I do want a Browning some day, but can't help wondering why a shotgun that is supposed to be based on the Superposed is dismissed as so much worse handling- when the Superposed is widely respected.



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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:36 am 
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Don't be rediculous, like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo. There is no comparison!

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:08 am 
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Since we are talking B guns, it is more like a Bugatti vs Yugo!


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:46 am 
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Superposed simply means O/U or as the Brits say "U/O."[B/c we all usually shoot the under bbl 1st.]

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:54 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:10 pm
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A Yugo, Really?

If you are doing comparisons, I figured an OU that was an updated modification of another OU should be more like a 2 seat car compared to the 2 seat sports car that inspired it.

Maybe like an Opal GT compared to a '62 Ferrari 250 GTO?

When you go to Yugo for the comparison, you change the category.

That would be more like comparing a Superposed to a Hatsan pump shotgun- you know, like comparing a 2 seat sports car to a 4 seat family commuter. They were designed for different purposes.


But, issues of analogies aside, has anyone actually held both, compared both and can identify WHY it handles like a 'yugo' or 'Opal GT', instead of the performance vehicle? Too often I read dismissive references that fail to give any details that are actually useful in determining what the differences are.

One of the more descriptive statements I've read was that using the Baikal was like swinging an oak 2x4. However, there was no reference to what swinging a Superposed was like: a 2x2 of pine? an aluminum rod that was 2" in diameter? PVC tubing?

I know what swinging a 2x4 is like: I've done it and had them aimed at my head before. However, i do NOT know what swinging a Superposed is like and no one in my area that I know has one for me to try out. So- I am trying to get both parts of the comparison from anyone who has swung both.

I understand that the vast majority seem to dislike the Baikal as 'cheap junk'. Yet the main points mentioned as problems seem to me to be more about aesthetics: such as metal finish and wood-to-metal fit, and wood finish. All three of those are things I can redo on my own, if I felt the need.

What are the functional differences that make it inferior to the Browning Superposed?


Sera- Interesting. Were there any O/U shotguns called 'superposed' before Browning made and sold the B25 that was labeled the Superposed in 1931?

I am wondering if this is truly another generic name, or if it is like the term refrigerator- which was originally a brand name of electric ice box, but now is synonymous with all electric ice boxes of all makes.

Could it be that all U/O shotguns are called Superposed because of influence of Browning?

I don't know one way or the other- but i am now curious...

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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bczrx wrote:
A Yugo, Really?

If you are doing comparisons, I figured an OU that was an updated modification of another OU should be more like a 2 seat car compared to the 2 seat sports car that inspired it.

Maybe like an Opal GT compared to a '62 Ferrari 250 GTO?

When you go to Yugo for the comparison, you change the category.

That would be more like comparing a Superposed to a Hatsan pump shotgun- you know, like comparing a 2 seat sports car to a 4 seat family commuter. They were designed for different purposes.


But, issues of analogies aside, has anyone actually held both, compared both and can identify WHY it handles like a 'yugo' or 'Opal GT', instead of the performance vehicle? Too often I read dismissive references that fail to give any details that are actually useful in determining what the differences are.

One of the more descriptive statements I've read was that using the Baikal was like swinging an oak 2x4. However, there was no reference to what swinging a Superposed was like: a 2x2 of pine? an aluminum rod that was 2" in diameter? PVC tubing?

I know what swinging a 2x4 is like: I've done it and had them aimed at my head before. However, i do NOT know what swinging a Superposed is like and no one in my area that I know has one for me to try out. So- I am trying to get both parts of the comparison from anyone who has swung both.

I understand that the vast majority seem to dislike the Baikal as 'cheap junk'. Yet the main points mentioned as problems seem to me to be more about aesthetics: such as metal finish and wood-to-metal fit, and wood finish. All three of those are things I can redo on my own, if I felt the need.

What are the functional differences that make it inferior to the Browning Superposed?


Sera- Interesting. Were there any O/U shotguns called 'superposed' before Browning made and sold the B25 that was labeled the Superposed in 1931?

I am wondering if this is truly another generic name, or if it is like the term refrigerator- which was originally a brand name of electric ice box, but now is synonymous with all electric ice boxes of all makes.

Could it be that all U/O shotguns are called Superposed because of influence of Browning?

I don't know one way or the other- but i am now curious...


If you want a Baikal, buy one. But don’t expect much support by asking to get favorable comparisons to a Browning O/U.


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:10 pm
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Rooster booster wrote:
If you want a Baikal, buy one. But don’t expect much support by asking to get favorable comparisons to a Browning O/U.


I am NOT asking for a favorable comparison. I am asking for an objective comparison- not a subjective one. Well- as objective as possible- one based on specific details, usually known as data points.

Like differences in the quality of metal used in the base pin, or the extractor system, or the reliability of the trigger system, or the issue of accuracy, or the balance point, or the dimensions of the forend.

What intrigues me is that the Baikal lit claims it is an updated Superposed, as in, an update of Browning's design. Yet, no one seems to discuss these differences to give both a quantitative and qualitative explanation of why this knock-off, with a few tweaks, is so far inferior to the original.

That is all.

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:26 pm 
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bczrx wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
If you want a Baikal, buy one. But don’t expect much support by asking to get favorable comparisons to a Browning O/U.


I am NOT asking for a favorable comparison. I am asking for an objective comparison- not a subjective one. Well- as objective as possible- one based on specific details, usually known as data points.

Like differences in the quality of metal used in the base pin, or the extractor system, or the reliability of the trigger system, or the issue of accuracy, or the balance point, or the dimensions of the forend.

What intrigues me is that the Baikal lit claims it is an updated Superposed, as in, an update of Browning's design. Yet, no one seems to discuss these differences to give both a quantitative and qualitative explanation of why this knock-off, with a few tweaks, is so far inferior to the original.

That is all.


Maybe no has one??


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:22 pm 
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Superposed is just a description of an O/U. Sovraposti in Italian (sometimes spelled sovrapostte).

Baikal was definitely trying to trade off the idea that their gun was "related" to a Browning.

And there's nothing all that special about a Browning Superposed. When Browning decided to make guns in Japan , they made the old Superposed design better and more user-friendly.

If I were a judge , I would hold that Baikal's usage of "superposed" is a clear violation of the unfair trade practices acts.

It is hard to talk a prospective Baikal buyer out of that line of thinking and --sometimes--it is best to let them get burned b/c they cannot learn the easy way.

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:31 pm 
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To my knowledge refrigerator was never a brand name for...uh...refrigerators. Frigidaire was and still is a brand name for refrigerators and gave rise to the generic name “fridge”.

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:49 pm 
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A Baikal and a Browning Superposed have NOTHING in common. They share none of the same parts designs, mechanics, ect, ZERO. There is not a single part on either gun that would interchange with the other beyond perhaps the front bead, and even that I'd doubt.

A Baikal is a decent gun FOR WHAT IT IS, which is a sub $500 over/under. To even consider it vaguely close in quality to a Browning Superposed is an insult to the intelligence to anyone that has even a passing knowledge of over/unders.

You are comparing a bargain basement gun made today with a gun that was a top of the line firearm for the majority of the last century.

The only thing the Baikal could claim lineage from a Browning Superposed in is the fact that they both have two barrels that are vertically oriented, end of story.

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:53 pm 
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bczrx wrote:

What intrigues me is that the Baikal lit claims it is an updated Superposed, as in, an update of Browning's design.


Source?

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:58 pm 
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BTW, "Superposed" is simply a shortening of the word "superimposed", meaning "placed or laid over something else, typically so that both things are still evident."

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:03 pm 
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I did a little quick research and it looks like the Russian sporting guns that were banned by Obama in 2014 are still not allowed for import . Baikal may have improved their product in six years but I doubt it would compare to a Browning . go ahead and buy one and shoot 3 boxes of shells a week for a year , and report back. the Browning's I have had took this all in stride with ....0.... problems . this is an easy test. Good Luck.


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:54 pm 
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I own a Browning Superposed and I have handled and shot one of the early Baikals.

The Baikal is not a copy of the Superposed in any way so far as I can tell. There are people who will say and write various fictions about guns. Some of them do it for a living.

For a new owner on a moderate budget that is actually going to shoot clays and/or hunt some with the gun a Citori is a far better choice in an over/under than either the Browning Superposed or the Baikal.


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:00 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:18 pm 
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Baikal shotguns are strong like wife, beautiful like tractor . . .


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:22 pm 
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Try a Yildiz if you want a browning citori copy. Comparing a Baikai to a superposed should be verboten.

DL


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:24 pm 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
BTW, "Superposed" is simply a shortening of the word "superimposed", meaning "placed or laid over something else, typically so that both things are still evident."

I think “superposed” stands alone as a correct term without derivation from superimposed. Certainly they mean almost the same thing. Apparently the difference is that superposition means to place on thing over another so that all common parts coincide. That requirement is absent for superimpose which can mean random stacking. And as you pointed out, superimpose suggests both objects remain visible. From the top or bottom that is not true of over/under barrels which are fully aligned, one hiding the other.

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Last edited by Auldthymer on Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:27 pm 
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tresamigovizslas wrote:
Try a Yildiz if you want a browning citori copy. Comparing a Baikai to a superposed should be verboten.

DL

My Brownings don’t really resemble Yildiz guns very well. Based on what I have seen of Yildiz at my club and at various shoots, the Brownings are much bulkier.



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