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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:19 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:10 pm
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Location: Wichita KS
Bill M. wrote:
I own a Browning Superposed and I have handled and shot one of the early Baikals.

The Baikal is not a copy of the Superposed in any way so far as I can tell. There are people who will say and write various fictions about guns. Some of them do it for a living.

For a new owner on a moderate budget that is actually going to shoot clays and/or hunt some with the gun a Citori is a far better choice in an over/under than either the Browning Superposed or the Baikal.



What he said ^^^^^^ My son shoots my old Baikal for skeet and Browning for trap. He started trap and skeet with the Baikal. When the Baikal gets rundown, he's buying my Weatherby Orion for skeet and back up trap gun. I'm going to Browning.

If you do some mods with the safety, firing pins and smooth out the pivoting surfaces, it is a good low round gun that will have a heavy recoil compared to the Browning. If you are going to shoot consistently don't waste your money, just go with a Browning.

The main difference is the refinement and receiver location the Browning's have compared to the Baikal's. See recoil statement above. On the Browning's all mating surfaces are machined and refined. The Baikal the refinement is not there. The surfaces are not smooth, you'll have to hone the lips on the edges and mating surface for the pivots. The firing pin holes are not smooth and are overbored, when you replace the pins smoothing the holes out helps immensely. After lubing they will operate smoothly. I can go on and on on the differences. But bottom line the Baikal has 6000 rounds through it and will be lucky to make it to 10 000 rounds. Parts are getting harder to come by.

You can pm for more info if needed.

JMHO


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:20 am 
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This is a complete waste of Bandwidth! :(

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:01 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:10 pm
Posts: 170
Dr Duk wrote:
Maybe no has one??


I would not be too surprised if this is so. Those who can only afford the entry level may not get to pick up a quality one like the Citori/Superposed.

sera wrote:
Superposed is just a description of an O/U. Sovraposti in Italian (sometimes spelled sovrapostte).
Baikal was definitely trying to trade off the idea that their gun was "related" to a Browning.


Good to know: Tedna [subsidiary of Huglu? at least, uses Huglu chokes, Huglu cases, and was distributed in Russia by Huglu] uses Superposed for their OU also- probably the same goal.

Auldthymer wrote:
To my knowledge refrigerator was never a brand name for...uh...refrigerators. Frigidaire was and still is a brand name for refrigerators and gave rise to the generic name “fridge”.


Thanks- that was the association I was vaguely remembering. I prefer to know the real one though, so thank you for pointing this out!

Skeet_Man wrote:
A Baikal and a Browning Superposed have NOTHING in common. They share none of the same parts designs, mechanics, ect, ZERO. There is not a single part on either gun that would interchange with the other beyond perhaps the front bead, and even that I'd doubt.

A Baikal is a decent gun FOR WHAT IT IS, which is a sub $500 over/under. To even consider it vaguely close in quality to a Browning Superposed is an insult to the intelligence to anyone that has even a passing knowledge of over/unders.

You are comparing a bargain basement gun made today with a gun that was a top of the line firearm for the majority of the last century.

The only thing the Baikal could claim lineage from a Browning Superposed in is the fact that they both have two barrels that are vertically oriented, end of story.


Thank you- this gives a bit more information, exactly what I was looking for: esp your references to no parts that would interchange. That gives a clearer idea of if there is any legacy of borrowing.

I can’t help but remember other examples of borrowing: either directly, like the Remington 11/Savage 720, vs Browning Auto 5, or indirectly- like the FN 1903/Colt 1911 vs Tokarev TT-33. [And I have a FN 1903 (well, the licensed copy- Husqvarna 1907), a few 1911s and a couple Tokarev TT-33 pistols, this isn't just internet couch surfing for comparison points]

IF there is any borrowing, it would seem to be more like the Tokarev TT-33- where they studied the designs as a baseline, and then went their own way to achieve their own version. Nothing interchangeable, but obvious design cues that indicate heritage. IF there was borrowing.

Thank you.

.45colt wrote:
I did a little quick research and it looks like the Russian sporting guns that were banned by Obama in 2014 are still not allowed for import . Baikal may have improved their product in six years but I doubt it would compare to a Browning . go ahead and buy one and shoot 3 boxes of shells a week for a year , and report back. the Browning's I have had took this all in stride with ....0.... problems . this is an easy test. Good Luck.


You are right- that test is the true test of overall reliability. It wouldn’t tell me about accuracy, but I’d figure out if I were missing all the time- I just wouldn’t know if it were because I was incompetent or not.

However, it isn’t an easy test for me. I barely have time to get a shotgun out to the range once every 4-5 months. When I do, I go through 2 boxes max, before I time out.
I have so few range trips that I try to do at least 2 or 3 things each trip- and I actually am more of a handgun person, who is trying to get the swing of things with shotguns.

Bill M. wrote:
I own a Browning Superposed and I have handled and shot one of the early Baikals.
The Baikal is not a copy of the Superposed in any way so far as I can tell. There are people who will say and write various fictions about guns. Some of them do it for a living.
For a new owner on a moderate budget that is actually going to shoot clays and/or hunt some with the gun a Citori is a far better choice in an over/under than either the Browning Superposed or the Baikal.


Thank you- this is the type of head to head comparison I was looking for.

Bladeswitcher wrote:
Baikal shotguns are strong like wife, beautiful like tractor . . .


:lol:

tresamigovizslas wrote:
Try a Yildiz if you want a browning citori copy. Comparing a Baikai to a superposed should be verboten.
DL


I am getting that… :wink:

Auldthymer wrote:

My Brownings don’t really resemble Yildiz guns very well. Based on what I have seen of Yildiz at my club and at various shoots, the Brownings are much bulkier.


Hmm- interesting.

Bad Moose wrote:
Bill M. wrote:
I own a Browning Superposed and I have handled and shot one of the early Baikals. ...

What he said ^^^^^^ My son shoots my old Baikal for skeet and Browning for trap. He started trap and skeet with the Baikal. When the Baikal gets rundown, he's buying my Weatherby Orion for skeet and back up trap gun. I'm going to Browning.
If you do some mods with the safety, firing pins and smooth out the pivoting surfaces, it is a good low round gun that will have a heavy recoil compared to the Browning. If you are going to shoot consistently don't waste your money, just go with a Browning.

The main difference is the refinement and receiver location the Browning's have compared to the Baikal's. See recoil statement above. On the Browning's all mating surfaces are machined and refined. The Baikal the refinement is not there. The surfaces are not smooth, you'll have to hone the lips on the edges and mating surface for the pivots. The firing pin holes are not smooth and are overbored, when you replace the pins smoothing the holes out helps immensely. After lubing they will operate smoothly. I can go on and on on the differences.
But bottom line the Baikal has 6000 rounds through it and will be lucky to make it to 10 000 rounds. Parts are getting harder to come by.
You can pm for more info if needed.
JMHO


Thank you, I may do so, but it will be about a month as I won’t have time to apply any improvements until then anyway.

Slugo wrote:
This is a complete waste of Bandwidth! :(


I am sorry you feel this way.

I agree that it started this way, but it has since become more helpful in getting an understanding of the real differences.
Too often people skip details to summarize the conclusion- and I am the type of person who wants to know the details that lead to that conclusion.
Like directions: give me a map, a compass, and a watch- keep the GPS and turn by turn directions.
I am not trying to get ‘there’ as fast as possible, but trying to get there and understand the route, and enjoy the trip while I am at it, while understanding the relationship between my destination and all other points on the compass.

My kids think I am nuts- as they just want to be told what to do, but then they find it weird that I can drive right to their friends house in Los Angeles 2 years later, without consulting a map- when they need the GPS to tell them how to get there because it has been 2 weeks.



I want to thank all of you who tried to give me some details and explanations. That has been very helpful.

What I find interesting was the initial assumption: That I was attempting to justify buying a Baikal IZH-27. I was hearing the voice of Oddball, from Kelly’s Heroes, talking about the 'negative vibes'.

In truth, I’ve had a Baikal [well, Remington Spartan SP310] for about 5 years. I’ve shot it 2 times, as I just don’t get out much. I have a number of SxS shotguns, some pumps and some semi-autos.

What I was trying to do was make a decision, which you all helped me do.

As of now, I have a Browning Citori Satin Hunter Grade I with ported barrels on its way to me. It was made in 1995, so I believe that it is a 425 series. It is an oddity in that it has 3.5” chambers- which I never intend to use. If I want to beat my shoulder to a pulp, I have an 870 SuperMagnum that will handle those 3.5" shells.
It was at a price similar to a CZ Redhead Premier in my area, but of better quality.

What I was trying to determine was why a Citori was better than a Baikal. I actually like the mechanical trigger aspect of the Baikal more.

I am acquiring things so that, down the road, I will have what I want and have spares- and can sell off anything else.
As a California resident, it seems wise to get what you can, while you can- rather than expect to be able to get it 5 years from now.

Again, thank you for your insights. I was not trying to be a troll who was arguing for one over the other. I was trying to understand WHY those opinions existed- as I have found many with opinions they inherit from others- rather than from their own experience/knowledge.

My Baikal will be a loaner and all purpose shotgun. My Citori will become my go to OU shotgun. And now I can compare and determine how much worse the Baikal kicks!

Badmoose- do you think changing the Baikal recoil pad to a decelerator or something might help?

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:13 pm 
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First, since SGW has a whole forum devoted to Baikals, I'd say it's probably not a waste of bandwidth. And if you take a look there, Humpty Dumpty is da man.
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewforum.php?f=83

Next, if you talk to folks throughout Europe, many will tell you that they're more than happy with their Baikals and brag about the game they've bagged and the number of rounds they've shot, and continue to shoot with them. By the same token, very few, if any, will brag about what a good looking gun they are! :lol:

And when they wanted to come up with an 'entry level' O/U, Remington thought enough about them to use them for their Spartan line. In this case the SPR-310... aka the Baikal MPR-310, aka the Baikal IZH 27. There are undoubtedly some small differences in them but underneath they're all the same gun.
(Here's a review from back then... https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial ... 906/100485 )

Back in the early '80s I owned a Citori (that I sold in a moment of weakness). It was a great gun and I shot it pretty well (for me) but I wasn't shooting much and the buyer made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

Fast forward a bunch of years and I was getting the bug to do some shooting when I saw an ad from one of the chain stores for a Red Label that was in my budget. I went to check it out but didn't care for the way it fit me but I saw another O/U on the rack at almost the same price. That was a Remington SPR310, and it followed me home. When I discovered sporting clays and started getting more serious about my shooting, I also got GAS - Gun Acquisition Syndrome - and a new safe. My SPR310 still lives there and gets used as a loaner...and has never missed a beat in many thousands of rounds.

Are the Baikals comparable to a Browning, or a Beretta, or a SKB, etc. No but they're not built for that market. Are they an inexpensive O/U that'll probably outlast their owner, IMHO absolutely.

The big caveat these days is with the restrictions on things coming from Russia, if you should need a part it can be a challenge finding one.


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:22 pm
Posts: 176
Location: NE South Dakota
You lost me at baikal.

A couple buddies picked up these cheap Baikal over unders when Remington was importing them. Numerous internal failures, forearms cracking and falling off, ftf and other issues later they ditched them for almost nothing. Customer service was nonexistent on them even when Remington was importing them.


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:10 pm
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Location: Wichita KS
bczrx wrote:
Dr Duk wrote:
Maybe no has one??


Badmoose- do you think changing the Baikal recoil pad to a decelerator or something might help?


Initially we added some fishing weights and bb's. That helped more than what you would think. We then added a Stock Positioning Systems LOP buttplate, with a Kick EEZ pad, and kept some of the fishing weights and bb's to weight it down. From research on here the fit probably made the most difference and then the added weight helps also. We've got it down to about my Weatherby to just touch more than it. He's 14, 6'1" and 140# dripping wet and still growing for comparison. I think is just at or just under 8lbs, we weighed it a year ago.

The boy was 12 when he started in the Spring and grew 4 inches by Fall highschool season, so he was outgrowing it. Instead of buying a new gun I did the research and for about 75 bucks added the SPS and they suggested the Kick EEZ with their system. It seems to kick less now. For Trap we got him a 725 Sporting with 32" barrels for Christmas. The Baikal has 28" barrels and he likes it, more to it being my first real fancy gun back in the day. LOL But we set it up strictly for Skeet now. He out shoots the $1500 and up guns with it and has had very few issues with it. We have modded the Safety, polished the firing pin holes, polished the firing pins, polished all of the pivot points, refinished the wood. Probably a few other things that I'm forgetting about. The gun is good for what it is and what it does. We have had alot of people look at it and ask what it is. They don't know what it is but I'm honest about the price. It is a $400 to $500 gun, that just happens to outshoot the gun they just paid $1500+ for and brag about. I'm fine with it and a firm believer that it is not the gun, it is the shooter first and then the fit. I don't have a money tree and work with what I have.


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:45 am 
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The Russians found a word in the English language that they thought might fool a few into buying a piece of junk they were trying to sell. It's a word that means nothing regarding quality, and they have no regard for ethics. Obviously they met their objective with at least one person. The good thing is, the cost of a Russian "B" gun won't ruin your life and the lesson learned should be valuable for the rest of your life. Car guys didn't fall for the Yugo and gun guys didn't fall for the Baikal.

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:33 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
bczrx wrote:

What intrigues me is that the Baikal lit claims it is an updated Superposed, as in, an update of Browning's design.


Source?


I'd still like to know the answer to this? I went directly to Baikal's russian website, and used Google Translate, and was not able to find the word "superposed" use anywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:14 am 
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Bladeswitcher wrote:
Baikal shotguns are strong like wife, beautiful like tractor . . .


This quote has stuck in my brain and has made me chuckle several times. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:52 pm 
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When it quits and it will , don't pitch it into the next county. put it in a five gallon pail , fill it with concrete and use the barrels to hold a birdfeeder in the garden . after it gets rusty in about a week some yuppie will give You around 1k for it and all will be right in the world. 8) .


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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:56 pm 
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EricB wrote:
Bladeswitcher wrote:
Baikal shotguns are strong like wife, beautiful like tractor . . .


This quote has stuck in my brain and has made me chuckle several times. Thank you.

You could say a lot worse about a gun.

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:59 pm 
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.45colt wrote:
When it quits and it will , don't pitch it into the next county. put it in a five gallon pail , fill it with concrete and use the barrels to hold a birdfeeder in the garden . after it gets rusty in about a week some yuppie will give You around 1k for it and all will be right in the world. 8) .

But in the meantime it is a gun that works. Lots of people out there wish they could say that about theirs.

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 Post subject: Re: 'B' guns- Browning Superposed vs Baikal IZH 27 ;-)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:45 pm 
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If my budget was in Baikai range I’d look at an used 1100 first...

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