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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:40 am 
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Tidefanatic wrote:
lt0026 wrote:
casonet wrote:
So what? MEC reloaders are made of stamped steel too= best sellers. 870 made of machined steel and also stamped steel parts= best sellers with over 11 million produced. Model 1100 same way= most popular auto ever produced with over 3 million made.

Beretta dominates the semi auto world. Remington is yesterday. Beretta is today. Beretta isn't going anywhere. Remington went belly up because of the big box junk they made.


Anybody that`s been even half attentive to the Remington saga knows that that`s not the case and that it`s far more complex a situation. Perhaps you do as well and are simply trying to get a rise out of some people?

Remington is what it was. It was a failing company with a terrible business plan. It was failing before private equity got involved. Remington was millions of dollars in debt and did not report a profit during the years 2003–2005. Before private equity got involved. When private equity got involved Remington had $252 million in assumed debt.




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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:34 am 
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Absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the product. Winchester failed to, so did LC Smith, so did Parker, so did Fox and the list goes on. Oh, yeah, and I’m glad to know that Beretta doesn’t use stamped parts or plastic or pot metal in their semi auto shotguns

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:39 am 
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Remington had, and the purchaser of Remington will have, a bad problem.

For the last seventy years the biggest seller of the company has been the 870.

It sold for $69 then, which would be about like $690 today.

And since all critical parts from the first ones made in 1950 and the last ones made in 2000 interchange, there’s not much room left for cost savings how to make an 870.

Whenever Remington prices an 870 $50 more than a Mossberg 500, sales suffer.

And when they try and sell $700 Wingmasters, for not much more you can buy a brand new Ithaca Model 37.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:49 am 
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casonet wrote:
Absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the product. Winchester failed to, so did LC Smith, so did Parker, so did Fox and the list goes on. Oh, yeah, and I’m glad to know that Beretta doesn’t use stamped parts or plastic or pot metal in their semi auto shotguns

Remington failed because they didn't develop new products and keep up with the times. They staked everything on the 700 (design flaw lawsuits) 1100, 870, 1187 and other price point firearms. They struggled to produce new designs. If they were so great, why was the company hundreds of millions in debt BEFORE private equity? Whatever Berettta uses must be pretty good. They far outnumber the amount of Remington's I see on the courses TODAY. Remington did make a good typewriter.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:58 pm 
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Using your logic Parker didn’t make a good shotgun because the company failed.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:23 pm 
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The Remington decline started in 1984, when the 3200 was discontinued. And the 3200 like so many Remington guns was the subject of massive class action lawsuits. The Garza lawsuit was a class action back in the late 80's which said that Remington shotgun barrels were made of inferior steel. It covered 1100,1187,870,3200 shotguns and they paid a prorated settlement to people who wanted to jump onto the suit. http://www.gunsmoke.com/guns/rem_lawsui ... ement.html


Last edited by lt0026 on Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:34 pm 
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OK, so what? The 870 and 1100 still sold in record numbers after1984. As recently as 3 years ago both were in short supply

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:36 pm 
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http://www.gunsmoke.com/guns/rem_lawsui ... ement.html
And add on the 700 fiasco and Sandy Hook any your done.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:44 pm 
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casonet wrote:
OK, so what? The 870 and 1100 still sold in record numbers after1984. As recently as 3 years ago both were in short supply


I think you`re being trolled, casonet. He didn`t have to begin this with a couple of rather inflammatory statements about Remington in general. Just trying to pick a fight, for whatever reason. He could have simply stated an opinion that he preferred another older model pump to the 870. The OP was addressing older PUMP shotguns. What the hell does that have to do with Beretta anyway?

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:44 pm 
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Again so what? None of that has a whit to do with the quality and longevity of the 870, both design and durability

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:48 pm 
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casonet wrote:
Again so what? None of that has a whit to do with the quality and longevity of the 870, both design and durability


Of course not. The 870 and 1100 are all time classics, and he knows it.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:56 pm 
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I think a big problem with Remington was that they hid their “good guns” away. The average Joe Sixpack consumer assumed the Express line was all there was. Is it any wonder so many people think Remington’s quality went down hill? Personally, i think the Express guns are pretty good for what they are, but Remington should not have allowed their budget products to define the brand.

Continuing to stress the traditional products might not have overcome the corporate raiders, but failing to do so didn’t help.

From what i could see, the Wingmaster remained a great gun until the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:04 pm 
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My point is this. The Remington Fan Boyz love to blame everything on private equity. Private equity got involved because Remington was already deeply in debt by hundreds of millions and on it's way out. And for many reasons. The damage was done way before private equity got involved.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:08 pm 
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Bladeswitcher wrote:
I think a big problem with Remington was that they hid their “good guns” away. The average Joe Sixpack consumer assumed the Express line was all there was. Is it any wonder so many people think Remington’s quality went down hill? Personally, i think the Express guns are pretty good for what they are, but Remington should not have allowed their budget products to define the brand.

Continuing to stress the traditional products might not have overcome the corporate raiders, but failing to do so didn’t help.

From what i could see, the Wingmaster remained a great gun until the end.



I agree. Some younger shooters know nothing about anything other than the Express. They see my 870 or 1100 and say “boy they don’t make them like that anymore.” Then I mention those two are four years old.

Having a budget line is fine until the tail starts waging the dog.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:15 pm 
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Do you not understand that we are talking about two entirely different subjects? Nobody cares about Remington Arms, the Company! It’s dead, it’s gone, aufgelost; probably never to return. That’s not what this thread is about. What caused its demise is history that we can all muse about when we nothing better to do. The point here is that the 870 is a very good gun vs the the others also discussed. That’s what we are trying to discuss here, but you keep dragging us back into Remington, the company and it’s failures. Again, nobody cares!

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:27 pm 
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casonet wrote:
Do you not understand that we are talking about two entirely different subjects? Nobody cares about Remington Arms, the Company! It’s dead, it’s gone, aufgelost; probably never to return. That’s not what this thread is about. What caused its demise is history that we can all muse about when we nothing better to do. The point here is that the 870 is a very good gun vs the the others also discussed. That’s what we are trying to discuss here, but you keep dragging us back into Remington, the company and it’s failures. Again, nobody cares!



OK . . . For what it’s worth, i like the Ithaca 37 recommendations.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:34 pm 
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casonet wrote:
Do you not understand that we are talking about two entirely different subjects? Nobody cares about Remington Arms, the Company! It’s dead, it’s gone, aufgelost; probably never to return. That’s not what this thread is about. What caused its demise is history that we can all muse about when we nothing better to do. The point here is that the 870 is a very good gun vs the the others also discussed. That’s what we are trying to discuss here, but you keep dragging us back into Remington, the company and it’s failures. Again, nobody cares!

A company with good products and management doesn't fall into debt by 100's of millions. Why did Remington fail BEFORE private equity? Today Remington could no longer compete with Browning, Beretta, Benelli, Fabarms and other overseas companies that modernized and kept up with the times.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:36 pm 
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Benelli still gets more hate than Remington.

And I still vote for the Ithaca 37 above all other pumps.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:52 pm 
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OK, I get it. You want to troll about Remington the Company. We want to talk about pump guns. Take it elsewhere. You are trying to hijack the thread. We aren’t interested.

Now back to the subject. I own 870s, Model 12s, a 37 and 31s. My favorite to shoot is hands down the 31. By far and away the smoothest action of all of them. But they are now a very old guns, hard to work on, and scarce parts. Second favorite is the 870, third is the Model 12 and 4th is the 37, mainly because I don’t care for bottom load/eject.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for an older classic pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:01 pm 
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There's a 1953 Ithaca 37 16ga on gunbroker right now and it looks like it's in fantastic shape!

They didn't list barrel length or choke (at least I didn't see it)

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/887179022




Last edited by MNGunner on Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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