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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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And that’s your disconnect........as was just pointed out to you, keeping your eyes on the rib is ‘aiming’. That makes for a lot of ‘0’s on the card.




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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:05 pm 
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moishepipick wrote:
drawdc wrote:
Keeping your eyes firmly fixed down the rib of the gun instead of looking at the target is aiming. I think most good sporting shooters build lead through gun speed, pulling through or away from the target they have matched speed with through looking at the target. I know some shots require sustained lead, but that lead is also determined by watching the target. I don’t know a single decent competitive shooter that aims down the rib.

Well, Churchill notwithstanding, it is physically impossible to swing the gun fast enough to have it pointing at the target (look hard at the target) when the trigger is pulled and build enough lead before the shot exits the muzzle to hit a fast crosser. Brister proved that. The only explanation is that the eyes have been disconnected from the rib, i.e. the direction the barrel is pointing. But exactly as you just suggested, that fact is not realized by most shooters. All I’m asking is what do you do with your eyes to keep looking at the target when the rib and barrels are pointing ahead of it. I know I am beating this to death, but I just can’t get over that “everyone” (more or less) does it, but no one can say how. That is just weird.


Brister proved no such thing. He proved that the pattern didn’t elongate due to muzzle speed. It was pretty obvious but I still hear folks say it. You most certainly can match gun speed to target speed and then accelerate away from it. If you don’t understand the explanation, that doesn’t make it incorrect.

Ever driven a race car? If you stare at the hood you’ll be out in the weeds in no time. You don’t have to see the car to drive, you always look ahead. Your mind processes that information as it is fed by your eyes and allows you to move to that spot. We look at the target as our guide.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5873
drawdc wrote:
moishepipick wrote:
drawdc wrote:
Keeping your eyes firmly fixed down the rib of the gun instead of looking at the target is aiming. I think most good sporting shooters build lead through gun speed, pulling through or away from the target they have matched speed with through looking at the target. I know some shots require sustained lead, but that lead is also determined by watching the target. I don’t know a single decent competitive shooter that aims down the rib.

Well, Churchill notwithstanding, it is physically impossible to swing the gun fast enough to have it pointing at the target (look hard at the target) when the trigger is pulled and build enough lead before the shot exits the muzzle to hit a fast crosser. Brister proved that. The only explanation is that the eyes have been disconnected from the rib, i.e. the direction the barrel is pointing. But exactly as you just suggested, that fact is not realized by most shooters. All I’m asking is what do you do with your eyes to keep looking at the target when the rib and barrels are pointing ahead of it. I know I am beating this to death, but I just can’t get over that “everyone” (more or less) does it, but no one can say how. That is just weird.


Brister proved no such thing. He proved that the pattern didn’t elongate due to muzzle speed. It was pretty obvious but I still hear folks say it. You most certainly can match gun speed to target speed and then accelerate away from it. If you don’t understand the explanation, that doesn’t make it incorrect.

Ever driven a race car? If you stare at the hood you’ll be out in the weeds in no time. You don’t have to see the car to drive, you always look ahead. Your mind processes that information as it is fed by your eyes and allows you to move to that spot. We look at the target as our guide.


Excellent, and right on.

I’m thinking we should get a pool going.......:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
Rooster booster wrote:
And that’s your disconnect........as was just pointed out to you, keeping your eyes on the rib is ‘aiming’. That makes for a lot of ‘0’s on the card.

You misunderstand. There is no disconnect. I am not talking about one-eyed aiming down the rib. I am talking about the MANDATED mounting procedure aligning the eye with the rib for a 50/50 pattern. As you well know, I didn’t make this up. It is the standard instruction for mounting a shotgun. It is the only way that the gun will shoot what you are looking at, a goal espoused by all serious shotgunners.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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No I don’t. You misunderstand the entire concept of the purpose of a properly fitted gun, and the use thereof.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:27 pm 
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Posts: 2598
Rooster booster wrote:
drawdc wrote:
moishepipick wrote:
[quote="drawdc"]Keeping your eyes firmly fixed down the rib of the gun instead of looking at the target is aiming. I think most good sporting shooters build lead through gun speed, pulling through or away from the target they have matched speed with through looking at the target. I know some shots require sustained lead, but that lead is also determined by watching the target. I don’t know a single decent competitive shooter that aims down the rib.

Well, Churchill notwithstanding, it is physically impossible to swing the gun fast enough to have it pointing at the target (look hard at the target) when the trigger is pulled and build enough lead before the shot exits the muzzle to hit a fast crosser. Brister proved that. The only explanation is that the eyes have been disconnected from the rib, i.e. the direction the barrel is pointing. But exactly as you just suggested, that fact is not realized by most shooters. All I’m asking is what do you do with your eyes to keep looking at the target when the rib and barrels are pointing ahead of it. I know I am beating this to death, but I just can’t get over that “everyone” (more or less) does it, but no one can say how. That is just weird.


Brister proved no such thing. He proved that the pattern didn’t elongate due to muzzle speed. It was pretty obvious but I still hear folks say it. You most certainly can match gun speed to target speed and then accelerate away from it. If you don’t understand the explanation, that doesn’t make it incorrect.

Ever driven a race car? If you stare at the hood you’ll be out in the weeds in no time. You don’t have to see the car to drive, you always look ahead. Your mind processes that information as it is fed by your eyes and allows you to move to that spot. We look at the target as our guide.


Excellent, and right on.

I’m thinking we should get a pool going.......:-)[/quote]

I’m in!


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:02 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
drawdc wrote:
moishepipick wrote:
drawdc wrote:
Keeping your eyes firmly fixed down the rib of the gun instead of looking at the target is aiming. I think most good sporting shooters build lead through gun speed, pulling through or away from the target they have matched speed with through looking at the target. I know some shots require sustained lead, but that lead is also determined by watching the target. I don’t know a single decent competitive shooter that aims down the rib.

Well, Churchill notwithstanding, it is physically impossible to swing the gun fast enough to have it pointing at the target (look hard at the target) when the trigger is pulled and build enough lead before the shot exits the muzzle to hit a fast crosser. Brister proved that. The only explanation is that the eyes have been disconnected from the rib, i.e. the direction the barrel is pointing. But exactly as you just suggested, that fact is not realized by most shooters. All I’m asking is what do you do with your eyes to keep looking at the target when the rib and barrels are pointing ahead of it. I know I am beating this to death, but I just can’t get over that “everyone” (more or less) does it, but no one can say how. That is just weird.


Brister proved no such thing. He proved that the pattern didn’t elongate due to muzzle speed. It was pretty obvious but I still hear folks say it. You most certainly can match gun speed to target speed and then accelerate away from it. If you don’t understand the explanation, that doesn’t make it incorrect.

Ever driven a race car? If you stare at the hood you’ll be out in the weeds in no time. You don’t have to see the car to drive, you always look ahead. Your mind processes that information as it is fed by your eyes and allows you to move to that spot. We look at the target as our guide.

You have made up a false position for me so you could knock it down. But you have it all wrong. I am not talking about pulling away until you find the right spot to pull the trigger like so many people, including Brister, find (found) successful. I am talking about pulling the trigger just as the muzzle passes the target, i.e. when you are looking at the bird and the muzzle is pointing at the bird. You can’t swing fast enough to achieve the necessary lead before the shot leaves the muzzle and stops moving in the direction of swing. Don’t forget the bird is moving between the trigger pull and the shot leaving the muzzle too so any lead generated during that time is largely erased by the travel of the target.

Just so you can’t deny Brister showed this, I quote from page 204 of his book where he talks about firing at a moving target at 40,50, and 60 yards:

“Several of the best shooters of my acquaintance have tried that target, some with the firm conviction they never consciously lead a crossing duck. But their average pattern placement as revealed by pellet holes in the target crossing at 40 miles per hour-at a precisely taped-off 40 yards-revealed they were hitting from 1 to 3 feet behind the duck when they fired just as the barrel passed the bird.”

“I have tried the same thing myself, at various speeds and yardages, in some cases using the full Churchill drill of pointing the left hand at the target as the gun is mounted, swinging as fast as I possibly could, in effect literally lurching the barrel past the bird’s bill, and the best I could do is hit slightly behind the duck at 40 miles an hour and 40 yards.”

He further says:

“English writer Gough Thomas shrugs off Churchill’s no-lead theory with the observation that it is simply impossible to move the gun fast enough for long-range on fast moving objects.”

And:

Having studied the various theories of forward allowance and marveled at how the Churchill system could circumvent laws of physics, it was revealing to try it on a moving target. From those tests I have decided, at least to my own satisfaction, that the works of Thomas and Burrard on the matter of forward allowance are full of plums of wisdom and that Churchill on this subject was full of prunes.”

I seldom admit this, but no way I could have said it better. I will, however, point out that few shooters really understand what they do. If they did, they would be able to tell me.

_________________
Morris


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:21 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
drawdc wrote:

Ever driven a race car? If you stare at the hood you’ll be out in the weeds in no time. You don’t have to see the car to drive, you always look ahead. Your mind processes that information as it is fed by your eyes and allows you to move to that spot. We look at the target as our guide.

You would think folks would get as tired of dragging out the silly racing car analogy as I get of hearing it. But no. You simply don’t understand that the driving hands on the steering wheel and the eyes are not in a fixed relationship to each other. They move independently. But on a gun the eyes and the muzzle are supposed to be locked together. That is why people practice their mounting technique endlessly. To get the lock perfected. You have to admit that you are somehow disconnecting the eyes from the rib/muzzle to keep looking at the target while the muzzle is pointing ahead of it. This is important stuff for understanding how to shoot, but all you do is dump on it.

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Morris


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:25 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5873
Not when you keep insisting they’re wrong, or ‘that’s not good enough’.

You had one of the best shots on the planet giving you a lesson, and within hours, you crapped all over his advice.

We’ve been down this road before......’everyone’ is wrong, or can’t explain it to your satisfaction, so therefore it’s wrong? Or are you going to start the ‘poor me’ argument again? You’ve received great advice in person, and online... continue to ignore it, but again, you’re just acting like another internet whack a mole. I guess if that’s your thing, and it certainly seems to be, have at it.

But until you, or someone you can get to admit their success on the scorecard is due to you’re revolutionary thinking, well, you’re wrong. Results matter, if you’ve figured out your thinking/methods are superior, but you’re not up to it...go find a few protégés, and keep the rest of the shooting world posted as they rack up the major wins.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:43 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
Rooster booster wrote:
Not when you keep insisting they’re wrong, or ‘that’s not good enough’.

You had one of the best shots on the planet giving you a lesson, and within hours, you crapped all over his advice.

We’ve been down this road before......’everyone’ is wrong, or can’t explain it to your satisfaction, so therefore it’s wrong? Or are you going to start the ‘poor me’ argument again? You’ve received great advice in person, and online... continue to ignore it, but again, you’re just acting like another internet whack a mole. I guess if that’s your thing, and it certainly seems to be, have at it.

But until you, or someone you can get to admit their success on the scorecard is due to you’re revolutionary thinking, well, you’re wrong. Results matter, if you’ve figured out your thinking/methods are superior, but you’re not up to it...go find a few protégés, and keep the rest of the shooting world posted as they rack up the major wins.

Damn, RB, none of what you said applies. I’m supporting the way other folks shoot. I know it is the norm. And I know it works for just about everyone who tries it. I’m not trying to change how people shoot. I’m trying to uncover how it works. All I’m saying is it would be helpful for folks to understand it and it not be a mystery. If I have pointed out in this conversation that anyone is wrong, it is not that they shoot wrong, it is that they don’t understand what I’m saying. Cut me some slack. I’m just trying to illuminate the topic a little. It’s what I do. The more I understand how the popular shooting methods work, the more I can appreciate them. I don’t do well with hand waving.

Hey, scientists! Can’t live with them. Can’t live without them.

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Morris


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5873
It’s been plenty illuminated, and I’ve had everyone from 8 year olds to 80 year olds pick it up pretty quickly. Maybe it’s just you?......


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 4:08 pm
Posts: 2598
moishepipick wrote:
drawdc wrote:
moishepipick wrote:
[quote="drawdc"]Keeping your eyes firmly fixed down the rib of the gun instead of looking at the target is aiming. I think most good sporting shooters build lead through gun speed, pulling through or away from the target they have matched speed with through looking at the target. I know some shots require sustained lead, but that lead is also determined by watching the target. I don’t know a single decent competitive shooter that aims down the rib.

Well, Churchill notwithstanding, it is physically impossible to swing the gun fast enough to have it pointing at the target (look hard at the target) when the trigger is pulled and build enough lead before the shot exits the muzzle to hit a fast crosser. Brister proved that. The only explanation is that the eyes have been disconnected from the rib, i.e. the direction the barrel is pointing. But exactly as you just suggested, that fact is not realized by most shooters. All I’m asking is what do you do with your eyes to keep looking at the target when the rib and barrels are pointing ahead of it. I know I am beating this to death, but I just can’t get over that “everyone” (more or less) does it, but no one can say how. That is just weird.


Brister proved no such thing. He proved that the pattern didn’t elongate due to muzzle speed. It was pretty obvious but I still hear folks say it. You most certainly can match gun speed to target speed and then accelerate away from it. If you don’t understand the explanation, that doesn’t make it incorrect.

Ever driven a race car? If you stare at the hood you’ll be out in the weeds in no time. You don’t have to see the car to drive, you always look ahead. Your mind processes that information as it is fed by your eyes and allows you to move to that spot. We look at the target as our guide.

You have made up a false position for me so you could knock it down. But you have it all wrong. I am not talking about pulling away until you find the right spot to pull the trigger like so many people, including Brister, find (found) successful. I am talking about pulling the trigger just as the muzzle passes the target, i.e. when you are looking at the bird and the muzzle is pointing at the bird. You can’t swing fast enough to achieve the necessary lead before the shot leaves the muzzle and stops moving in the direction of swing. Don’t forget the bird is moving between the trigger pull and the shot leaving the muzzle too so any lead generated during that time is largely erased by the travel of the target.

Just so you can’t deny Brister showed this, I quote from page 204 of his book where he talks about firing at a moving target at 40,50, and 60 yards:

“Several of the best shooters of my acquaintance have tried that target, some with the firm conviction they never consciously lead a crossing duck. But their average pattern placement as revealed by pellet holes in the target crossing at 40 miles per hour-at a precisely taped-off 40 yards-revealed they were hitting from 1 to 3 feet behind the duck when they fired just as the barrel passed the bird.”

“I have tried the same thing myself, at various speeds and yardages, in some cases using the full Churchill drill of pointing the left hand at the target as the gun is mounted, swinging as fast as I possibly could, in effect literally lurching the barrel past the bird’s bill, and the best I could do is hit slightly behind the duck at 40 miles an hour and 40 yards.”

He further says:

“English writer Gough Thomas shrugs off Churchill’s no-lead theory with the observation that it is simply impossible to move the gun fast enough for long-range on fast moving objects.”

And:

Having studied the various theories of forward allowance and marveled at how the Churchill system could circumvent laws of physics, it was revealing to try it on a moving target. From those tests I have decided, at least to my own satisfaction, that the works of Thomas and Burrard on the matter of forward allowance are full of plums of wisdom and that Churchill on this subject was full of prunes.”

I seldom admit this, but no way I could have said it better. I will, however, point out that few shooters really understand what they do. If they did, they would be able to tell me.[/quote]

When did I say pull the trigger just as the muzzle reaches the target?


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
drawdc wrote:
moishepipick wrote:
drawdc wrote:

Brister proved no such thing. He proved that the pattern didn’t elongate due to muzzle speed. It was pretty obvious but I still hear folks say it. You most certainly can match gun speed to target speed and then accelerate away from it. If you don’t understand the explanation, that doesn’t make it incorrect.

Ever driven a race car? If you stare at the hood you’ll be out in the weeds in no time. You don’t have to see the car to drive, you always look ahead. Your mind processes that information as it is fed by your eyes and allows you to move to that spot. We look at the target as our guide.

You have made up a false position for me so you could knock it down. But you have it all wrong. I am not talking about pulling away until you find the right spot to pull the trigger like so many people, including Brister, find (found) successful. I am talking about pulling the trigger just as the muzzle passes the target, i.e. when you are looking at the bird and the muzzle is pointing at the bird. You can’t swing fast enough to achieve the necessary lead before the shot leaves the muzzle and stops moving in the direction of swing. Don’t forget the bird is moving between the trigger pull and the shot leaving the muzzle too so any lead generated during that time is largely erased by the travel of the target.

Just so you can’t deny Brister showed this, I quote from page 204 of his book where he talks about firing at a moving target at 40,50, and 60 yards:

“Several of the best shooters of my acquaintance have tried that target, some with the firm conviction they never consciously lead a crossing duck. But their average pattern placement as revealed by pellet holes in the target crossing at 40 miles per hour-at a precisely taped-off 40 yards-revealed they were hitting from 1 to 3 feet behind the duck when they fired just as the barrel passed the bird.”

“I have tried the same thing myself, at various speeds and yardages, in some cases using the full Churchill drill of pointing the left hand at the target as the gun is mounted, swinging as fast as I possibly could, in effect literally lurching the barrel past the bird’s bill, and the best I could do is hit slightly behind the duck at 40 miles an hour and 40 yards.”

He further says:

“English writer Gough Thomas shrugs off Churchill’s no-lead theory with the observation that it is simply impossible to move the gun fast enough for long-range on fast moving objects.”

And:

Having studied the various theories of forward allowance and marveled at how the Churchill system could circumvent laws of physics, it was revealing to try it on a moving target. From those tests I have decided, at least to my own satisfaction, that the works of Thomas and Burrard on the matter of forward allowance are full of plums of wisdom and that Churchill on this subject was full of prunes.”

I seldom admit this, but no way I could have said it better. I will, however, point out that few shooters really understand what they do. If they did, they would be able to tell me.


When did I say pull the trigger just as the muzzle reaches the target?

Exactly! You didn’t. I did. And you didn’t understand that when you read it.

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Morris


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:18 pm 
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Posts: 2598
moishepipick wrote:
drawdc wrote:

Ever driven a race car? If you stare at the hood you’ll be out in the weeds in no time. You don’t have to see the car to drive, you always look ahead. Your mind processes that information as it is fed by your eyes and allows you to move to that spot. We look at the target as our guide.

You would think folks would get as tired of dragging out the silly racing car analogy as I get of hearing it. But no. You simply don’t understand that the driving hands on the steering wheel and the eyes are not in a fixed relationship to each other. They move independently. But on a gun the eyes and the muzzle are supposed to be locked together. That is why people practice their mounting technique endlessly. To get the lock perfected. You have to admit that you are somehow disconnecting the eyes from the rib/muzzle to keep looking at the target while the muzzle is pointing ahead of it. This is important stuff for understanding how to shoot, but all you do is dump on it.


You have been a member of the forum for 17 days. How many times could you have possibly had someone reference racing cars?


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:47 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5873
:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:08 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1033
I’m trying to figure out who this guy reminds me of . Hmmmm...


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:44 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5873
;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:02 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:29 am
Posts: 417
Location: Port St Lucie FL
captjsjr wrote:
I’m trying to figure out who this guy reminds me of . Hmmmm...


Bingo!


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:10 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2338
Location: Central NH
captjsjr wrote:
I’m trying to figure out who this guy reminds me of . Hmmmm...

Same arguments...

same eye glued to the rib. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting advice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:57 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5873
Back to the OP, there is an article in the latest ClayShooting USA by John Shima, titled ‘Watch the target break’ it may help you out some.




Last edited by Rooster booster on Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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