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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:36 pm 
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sera wrote:
when I used to shoot 1.125 oz at 1250 , I could feel it around 75 shells. Now 1 oz at 1200 , I don't feel recoil at all.

My experience as well.




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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:40 pm 
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maltzahn wrote:
I'm a 300 a day shooter. Register trap, common day is 100 singles, 100 caps, 100 doubles. some weeks I shoot 6 days in a row at big tournaments. All loads are 1 1/8th oz.

Have registered over 100,000 singles , just short of 100,000 caps, and 50,000 doubles and probably doubled that in non-registered targets. 500,000 targets

I know recoil and have had to go to a release trigger to continue shooting. Also went to a PFS stock to address recoil and have tried every recoil management gimmick ever made. Also studied all text on gun fitting written. Have added weight to all my Krieghoff K-80's and know how to balance my guns for each discipline. Balance is personal for handling and center mass for recoil.

If your addressing recoil at whatever level of shooting sports, start with gun fit. Reducing payload is effective at reducing recoil, but also reflects on scores. Some shooters reduce payload to save money on reloading and that also reflects on scores. Saving money must be more important that adding targets to average or beating your friends on the clay field. Your choice.

Recoil will eventually get you and your subconscious. If you do not address it, my outline of effect is written above.

Maltz

Thanks for the input, Maltz. I could not agree with you more. I was asking to see how many people have a problem from the get go but don’t address it.


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:16 pm 
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Location: Western Tampa, FL
When I was young and bullet-proof, recoil was never an issue. However, I would get tired and even get a head ache once in a while from shooting. Over the years, I quickly devolved into a quivering bowl of Jello if I have to shoot anything like 1 1/8 oz at 1,200 fps or faster. The only thing that stopped my flinching in Trap was a release trigger, which I really like for that sport.

However, I now shoot informally using a Remington V3 precisely because it is so soft shooting. I can once again shoot 1 1/8 oz loads with impunity. It also has a very crisp trigger which I have also found helps prevent flinching. Some folks although rare in number, never seem to be bothered by recoil to the point they develop a flinch.

For example, I know an ATA Hall of Fame shooter who completed his ATA Grand Slam a couple of times and has well over 300,000 registered targets. He says he never flinched and always used fixed breech trap guns like his Seitz without any special recoil mitigation devices. Go figure.


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:58 pm 
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when I was shooting pigeons , I had a Ken Rucker mechanical recoil device added to my gun for relief from those boomer loads. Among live pigeon shooters , 1.25 oz loads were the norm and 1330 was the load that won the shoots. This would be like being punched over and over by Mohammed Ali. It hurt. The bump-buster device (that may not be the name) helped.

BUT--it was heavy and changed the balance of the gun for the worse. I took it off and went to a thick Kick-eez pad. That worked pretty good , too and while heavy-ish was way lighter than the bump-buster.

I never shoot 1.25 at Fitasc , even when you could. I did shoot 1.125 and 1250 loads. When Fiasc went to 1 oz loads in about 2005 , I changed to 1 oz loads for all clay targets. I have never looked back.

I have been to Argentina (several times) where they have a 9/16th oz 28g load. It will kill a dove stone dead at 60 yrds w/ an IM choke. Use enough choke and you don't have to shoot a heavy payload nor a fast FPS load.

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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:41 pm 
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sera wrote:
when I was shooting pigeons , I had a Ken Rucker mechanical recoil device added to my gun for relief from those boomer loads. Among live pigeon shooters , 1.25 oz loads were the norm and 1330 was the load that won the shoots. This would be like being punched over and over by Mohammed Ali. It hurt. The bump-buster device (that may not be the name) helped.

BUT--it was heavy and changed the balance of the gun for the worse. I took it off and went to a thick Kick-eez pad. That worked pretty good , too and while heavy-ish was way lighter than the bump-buster.

I never shoot 1.25 at Fitasc , even when you could. I did shoot 1.125 and 1250 loads. When Fiasc went to 1 oz loads in about 2005 , I changed to 1 oz loads for all clay targets. I have never looked back.

I have been to Argentina (several times) where they have a 9/16th oz 28g load. It will kill a dove stone dead at 60 yrds w/ an IM choke. Use enough choke and you don't have to shoot a heavy payload nor a fast FPS load.

I value that input. Wondering, however, what you meant by 9/16 oz 28 g load. The two weights aren’t the same.


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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28 gauge......


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:53 pm 
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Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
. :wink: .


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:57 am
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As mentioned, adding weight while keeping your balance in check where you want it... my DT-11 came with weights you could secure inside the stock bolt hole.. I secured a brass rod on My 682 gold E to help with the weight. Never shot either with the factory pad went straight for a kick Ez and shaped it to the gun (bought the sporting clays model that will help with gun mounting not catching your shirt vest). The DT11 has the adjustable comb which is really nice since it’s almost impossible to get a factory fit that is perfect. I reload and went from 1 1/8oz loads to 1 oz and slowed down the velocity to around 1160 which really helped. The other day a buddy won some monarch shells in a raffle and they were 1 1/8 oz at 1350. He busted them out when we were practicing and shot that round on over cylinder and my 1 oz 1160s on the under.... wow. We both started laughing at the difference...


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:34 am 
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In trap shooting from the 27 back fence you will used a max load or simply not be competitive. Ive spent a lifetime (51 years shooting) being a champion in trap, even now at Sr. Vet still winning champ trophies, state team and HOA, etc. Still on 27 yards earned not refused and getting honor punches.

Recoil beat me to a release trigger by year 2001. The release kept me in the game, but I had to do something about recoil. Gun fit and I mean perfect gun fit has been the most effect resolve. Most recoil devises are a slightly effective. In my experience the dead mule if installed bore level is as effective as a RAD or Bump-Buster costing hundreds more, but the best Ive found is the Precision Fit Stock. As ugly as it is.....it works in both fit and recoil reduction. A hard choice for me because I have custom made stocks with wood that cost thousands of dollars just for the wood and 3 K-80's that need a stock.

Your choice is reduce payload or spend money on equipment. Then pay for or learn gun fit. I under stand reduced payload, have tried it, but in the trap game it is still a one target game. FYI.....so is skeet and sporting at a competitive level. We are always looking for that one target by event or score average. Fun shooters look for their fist 25 straight, competitive trap shooters must shoot 100 straight to get to the shoot off or win by one target. Skeet is even more demanding, 500 straight to get to the shoot off in every ga. accept 410. Sporting has gone to 50 yard crossers to separate the girls from the boys.

Decisions are made based your level of competition. The more competitive...the more shot required.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:46 am 
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maltzahn wrote:
In trap shooting from the 27 back fence you will used a max load or simply not be competitive. Ive spent a lifetime (51 years shooting) being a champion in trap, even now at Sr. Vet still winning champ trophies, state team and HOA, etc. Still on 27 yards earned not refused and getting honor punches.

Recoil beat me to a release trigger by year 2001. The release kept me in the game, but I had to do something about recoil. Gun fit and I mean perfect gun fit has been the most effect resolve. Most recoil devises are a slightly effective. In my experience the dead mule if installed bore level is as effective as a RAD or Bump-Buster costing hundreds more, but the best Ive found is the Precision Fit Stock. As ugly as it is.....it works in both fit and recoil reduction. A hard choice for me because I have custom made stocks with wood that cost thousands of dollars just for the wood and 3 K-80's that need a stock.

Your choice is reduce payload or spend money on equipment. Then pay for or learn gun fit. I under stand reduced payload, have tried it, but in the trap game it is still a one target game. FYI.....so is skeet and sporting at a competitive level. We are always looking for that one target by event or score average. Fun shooters look for their fist 25 straight, competitive trap shooters must shoot 100 straight to get to the shoot off or win by one target. Skeet is even more demanding, 500 straight to get to the shoot off in every ga. accept 410. Sporting has gone to 50 yard crossers to separate the girls from the boys.

Decisions are made based your level of competition. The more competitive...the more shot required.

Maltz


You are simply wrong about skeet. Many top competitors shoot 1 ounce shells. 8.5 or 9 shot makes up for the pellet count difference and is plenty to break a skeet target. My son is in college now and not competing regularly, but he and 3 of his shooting buddies were AAA in 12 gauge shooting tubed 20 gauge. They did it to keep the gun weight the same with tubes in. Carrier barrels are too expensive for a 15 year old. Didn't hurt them a bit. By the way, I don't know where you came up with 500 straight. 100 straight will get you in the shoot off for almost every event except for 12 gauge at the Worlds.

Many top sporting clays shooters also shoot 1 ounce as well. Some will pull out 1 1/8 ounce for the 50 yard plus shots. That certainly is up for debate and has been debated a lot.

Taking your 51 year old trap ideas to other disciplines may not be the most productive given newer equipment and ammo. If 1 1/8 ounce makes you feel more confident, go for it. It is not a slam dunk that it is the only answer. Telling people they won't be competitive unless they shoot 1 1/8 ounce loads can't be proven. They should shoot what works best for them.


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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maltzahn wrote:
In trap shooting from the 27 back fence you will used a max load or simply not be competitive. Ive spent a lifetime (51 years shooting) being a champion in trap, even now at Sr. Vet still winning champ trophies, state team and HOA, etc. Still on 27 yards earned not refused and getting honor punches.

Recoil beat me to a release trigger by year 2001. The release kept me in the game, but I had to do something about recoil. Gun fit and I mean perfect gun fit has been the most effect resolve. Most recoil devises are a slightly effective. In my experience the dead mule if installed bore level is as effective as a RAD or Bump-Buster costing hundreds more, but the best Ive found is the Precision Fit Stock. As ugly as it is.....it works in both fit and recoil reduction. A hard choice for me because I have custom made stocks with wood that cost thousands of dollars just for the wood and 3 K-80's that need a stock.

Your choice is reduce payload or spend money on equipment. Then pay for or learn gun fit. I under stand reduced payload, have tried it, but in the trap game it is still a one target game. FYI.....so is skeet and sporting at a competitive level. We are always looking for that one target by event or score average. Fun shooters look for their fist 25 straight, competitive trap shooters must shoot 100 straight to get to the shoot off or win by one target. Skeet is even more demanding, 500 straight to get to the shoot off in every ga. accept 410. Sporting has gone to 50 yard crossers to separate the girls from the boys.

Decisions are made based your level of competition. The more competitive...the more shot required.

Maltz


Wrong. If the maximum payload was reduced to 1/2oz., the winners would still be the winners. Change the tools all you want, the best are the best because of a number of factors. The tools used aren’t one of those factors.


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:33 am 
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Couldn't agree more, Rooster.......but no big dawgs or organization has made your said mandate. As long as the ATA allows 3 dram once and a eighth. Those that want an edge will over shoot max or what is needed in equipment. Skeet with a trap cap load is like hunting rabbits with a 45 ACP. I get it.

Doesn't matter if you are D class or AAA, 19 yard or 27. If you are competitive, you will look for advantage. Those that are not competitive, don't care.

Skeet at the college level is about 100 target programs. Skeet at the national level is about 500 bird programs. I'm a former College coach. It ain't the same competition or skill level. Not close.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:46 am 
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We used to shoot a 600 bird tournament over 2 days. Even shooting 7/8 loads in a 12 ga it took a bit of training to get the body in shape. We would shoot more in the weeks leading up to get the body used to the physical work required. This helped with the muscle soreness. We still would get mentally fatigued and didn’t shoot as well on the last 100 birds.


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:55 am 
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maltzahn wrote:
Couldn't agree more, Rooster.......but no big dawgs or organization has made your said mandate. As long as the ATA allows 3 dram once and a eighth. Those that want an edge will over shoot max or what is needed in equipment. Skeet with a trap cap load is like hunting rabbits with a 45 ACP. I get it.

Doesn't matter if you are D class or AAA, 19 yard or 27. If you are competitive, you will look for advantage. Those that are not competitive, don't care.

Skeet at the college level is about 100 target programs. Skeet at the national level is about 500 bird programs. I'm a former College coach. It ain't the same competition or skill level. Not close.

Maltz


I wasn't talking about college competition. I was talking about NSSA Registered target shoots. To make a gauge shoot-off, you may have to run 100 straight. Four separate 100 target events. HOA is normally 400 targets and you rarely have to run a 4 by. HAA is 500 and unfortunately an after thought. Winning a gauge at a major event is a big deal. Every true competitor does looks for an advantage. 1 1/8th ounce at skeet is not one of them.


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:47 am 
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I've shot enough to know that I can shoot fine w/ 1 oz at 1200.

And at SC's we often have 50 yd targets. Use enough choke and they'll turn to smoke.

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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:44 am 
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drawd......I shoot a little skeet at your local gun club. As a founding board member I support all the disciplines, but not a truly competitive skeet shooter. Registered ATA Trapshooting on a national level is my game.

My skeet knowledge is limited and based on New Pioneer gun club at Walkee, Ia. As a former member of and having the most skeet field available in IA. The Governors Cup and State skeet shoot was held there. Years ago skeet was a big deal. At these major registered events there wasn't enough parking for all the vehicles. All large skeet programs were 500 bird events then. In all ga.

Today the state skeet shoot is near irrelevant with small crowds under 50 shooter attendance. A joke compared to the 80's. Attendance in the IA state sporting clay shoot is under 150. Attendance at the IA state trap shoot is near 1000 from all over America and several foreign countries. About the same percentages as at our club comparing skeet, 5-stand, and trap. This is what reflects on my opinion and knowledge thereof.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:28 am 
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maltzahn wrote:
drawd......I shoot a little skeet at your local gun club. As a founding board member I support all the disciplines, but not a truly competitive skeet shooter. Registered ATA Trapshooting on a national level is my game.

My skeet knowledge is limited and based on New Pioneer gun club at Walkee, Ia. As a former member of and having the most skeet field available in IA. The Governors Cup and State skeet shoot was held there. Years ago skeet was a big deal. At these major registered events there wasn't enough parking for all the vehicles. All large skeet programs were 500 bird events then. In all ga.

Today the state skeet shoot is near irrelevant with small crowds under 50 shooter attendance. A joke compared to the 80's. Attendance in the IA state sporting clay shoot is under 150. Attendance at the IA state trap shoot is near 1000 from all over America and several foreign countries. About the same percentages as at our club comparing skeet, 5-stand, and trap. This is what reflects on my opinion and knowledge thereof.

Maltz


Maltz,

That's interesting about the numbers of shooters who choose to participate in the various shooting sports events big tournaments. However, I'm wondering if it holds true for smaller events or for non-registered shooting preferences.

For example, here in Florida, there seems to be MANY more shooters participating in sporting clays shooting of all kinds all over the state with perhaps the exception of the Silver Dollar or Big Event trap tournaments.

Maybe it's just that trap shooters as a whole are more attracted to attend Big Events while sporting clays shooters are more spread out and more interested in shooting in venues of all sizes. Or maybe it's a regional thing. Don't know. :?

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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:23 pm 
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sera wrote:
I've shot enough to know that I can shoot fine w/ 1 oz at 1200.

And at SC's we often have 50 yd targets. Use enough choke and they'll turn to smoke.


What choke do you suggest for 50 yard smoke?


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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:44 pm 
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DKW1 wrote:
sera wrote:
I've shot enough to know that I can shoot fine w/ 1 oz at 1200.

And at SC's we often have 50 yd targets. Use enough choke and they'll turn to smoke.


What choke do you suggest for 50 yard smoke?


I think it would be IM........... which stands for "Imaginary". :wink: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: A recoil question just for the sake of knowing.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:16 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
DKW1 wrote:
sera wrote:
I've shot enough to know that I can shoot fine w/ 1 oz at 1200.

And at SC's we often have 50 yd targets. Use enough choke and they'll turn to smoke.


What choke do you suggest for 50 yard smoke?


I think it would be IM........... which stands for "Imaginary". :wink: :lol:


Are you saying sera has a vivid imagination ?




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