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 Post subject: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:11 am
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I would like to know how I can possibly increase the range of a birdshot shotgun shell to at least 100 meters, that is, to maintain a tight enough spread upto that distance. I have searched on the internet and there are a number of ways but few can really increase range upto 100 meters or beyond. Among them are special 100 metri shot shells that are have double wads, I'm not sure what that means, another way is making custom shells by bonding shot together with hot glue, and another method is cutting the shells.

I have thought about my own proposed methods of using pointed shot (cone shaped) instead of round shot. Will that keep a tight spread at longer range?
Another of my methods is by using flat packed shot, that is, using a very short shell in which all the shot sits on the wad (touching the wad) and no shot sits on top of other shot. May that give very low spread rate?
What do you know from experience or have experimented with that works ?




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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:20 am 
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You are running into a problem with Physics in your quest.

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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 am 
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The only thing I am familiar with is cut shells. However, since they fly in a mass much like a slug, it isn't really "shot" that has effective range of 100 yards. Curly N is correct and best case you get frustrated and give up. Worse case you hurt your equipment and yourself. I advise against it.

However, if you want to continue to try then I suggest you get no less than an 8 gauge, preferably a 4 gauge shotgun and go at it. You should be able to get one of those "effective" to 100 yards.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:38 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:04 am
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Just curious. What are you going to shoot at ?

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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:24 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:11 am
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Tidefanatic wrote:
Just curious. What are you going to shoot at ?


Birds, including at long range.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:50 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:27 pm
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Location: Kentucky
Shoot in a low atmosphere environment .. like the moon.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:53 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
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Take lessons from George Digweed.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:58 am 
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sprotz wrote:
Tidefanatic wrote:
Just curious. What are you going to shoot at ?


Birds, including at long range.


There`s a term for that. It`s called "Sky busting ". You can plan on losing lots of cripples.

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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:29 am
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Location: Port St Lucie FL
There`s a term for that. It`s called "Sky busting ". You can plan on losing lots of cripples.[/quote]


Agree, unethical in my opinion no matter what the quarry. Clean kills should be the goal of anyone engaged in hunting, failure to do so makes all hunters look bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:03 am 
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This reminds me of some comments that Col. Jeff Cooper made about big game hunters who brag about the offhand shot they made on a running deer, or who brag about bagging an animal from many hundreds of yards. The joy of and skill behind hunting is the act of hunting; the final shot to bag the game is just the icing on the cake. As Cooper said:

“Remember the rule of the rifleman, "If you can get closer, get closer. If you can get steadier, get steadier." Of course if all you are trying to do is prove that you can do something, you are involved in a different game.”

I’d say the same sentiment applies to trying to change shotguns into long range devices.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:03 am 
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Location: Port St Lucie FL
HenryVac wrote:
This reminds me of some comments that Col. Jeff Cooper made about big game hunters who brag about the offhand shot they made on a running deer, or who brag about bagging an animal from many hundreds of yards. The joy of and skill behind hunting is the act of hunting; the final shot to bag the game is just the icing on the cake. As Cooper said:

“Remember the rule of the rifleman, "If you can get closer, get closer. If you can get steadier, get steadier." Of course if all you are trying to do is prove that you can do something, you are involved in a different game.”

I’d say the same sentiment applies to trying to change shotguns into long range devices.



Agree, this would be a fun exercise on clay targets assuming a safe background but has no place when hunting live birds.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:34 am 
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Didn't pass that high school physics class, did you?

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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:34 am 
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sprotz wrote:
I would like to know how I can possibly increase the range of a birdshot shotgun shell to at least 100 meters, that is, to maintain a tight enough spread upto that distance.


What is the target size? How much do you want to spend on a shell? How much recoil can you stand? What birds? Are they birds you intend to eat?

109.361 yards is not realistic. For true long range loads, tungsten is the only path. Apex 12ga 3-1/2 inch 2-1/2 oz. #7-1/2 TSS is one of the longest range shotshells made. The recoil is horrific. It has 550 pellets, MV of 1275 fps.

It has one inch of gel penetration at 123.4 yards . . . along with 75 inches of drop and 58.55 inches of 10 mph wind drift. It would be a fascinating dove load.

If you want 1-1/2 inches of penetration, the limit is 95.8 yards ... well short of your 100 meter minimum goal. Shoulder surgery costs not included.

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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:29 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:11 am
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What about an air shotgun ? Will that have minimal recoil? But anyway I was just checking for possibilities of a long range shotgun, I reckon that an air rifle would be a much better option.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:57 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
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There's clearly a whole lot about shotgun ballistics that you do not understand.
Anything over 45 yards, you need a rifle.
Yes, I know long range shots are made, and some shooters are better than average, but crippling losses of waterfowl go up rapidly with long distance.
Even if you had a shotshell that was ballistically adequate, with adequate pattern density at long range - how would you get the pattern on target?
Average shotgun shooters miss an awful lot of ducks at 30 to 40 yards because they can't solve the question of correct lead for target speed, to say nothing of wind speed and shot trajectory at longer range.
Very long range trick shooting of clay targets by outstanding shooters like George Digweed is not something easily accomplished by ordinary shotgunners.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:32 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:11 am
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What if the target is stationary? Then the only factors to take into account are trajectory and wind. There is almost no wind where I am so only trajectory. But when the target is moving, more skill needed. But I am thinking there has to be a way to reduce pattern spread for at least 100 meters. I am thinking that maybe reducing lateral velocity of the shot as it leaves the barrel should work.
Because the wad is lighter than the shot, it decelerates faster due to air drag, so Perhaps using a slightly heavier wad that decelerates slower so it stays with the shot longer, so that halfway through the flight, the wad separates from the shot completely, then the shot starts to spread, and 50 meters later the shot strikes the target at a tight pattern as it it were made from 50 meters away.
Another possibility I am thinking, because the shot rests on top of other shot, it gets pushed by the shot behind it due to acceleration. As the shot infront leaves the barrel, the push from behind forces it sideways, so what if we let each shot layer rest on a thin cardboard strip instead of resting on top of other shot, maybe the lateral forces would be minimized due to cardboard having more friction than lead shot.
Btw, I did fail physics at high school, but only because the paper was very hard and I am a slower learner than the average person.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:10 am 
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sprotz wrote:
What if the target is stationary? Then the only factors to take into account are trajectory and wind. There is almost no wind where I am so only trajectory.


There is always some wind unless you are shooting in an underground test tunnel. The only gamebirds that are completely stationary are dead ones.

Get a rifle, a good .22 rimfire will do, shoot at paper, and don't irritate birds or other living things with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:30 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
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Location: Western Tampa, FL
sprotz wrote:
What if the target is stationary? Then the only factors to take into account are trajectory and wind. There is almost no wind where I am so only trajectory. But when the target is moving, more skill needed. But I am thinking there has to be a way to reduce pattern spread for at least 100 meters. I am thinking that maybe reducing lateral velocity of the shot as it leaves the barrel should work.
Because the wad is lighter than the shot, it decelerates faster due to air drag, so Perhaps using a slightly heavier wad that decelerates slower so it stays with the shot longer, so that halfway through the flight, the wad separates from the shot completely, then the shot starts to spread, and 50 meters later the shot strikes the target at a tight pattern as it it were made from 50 meters away.
Another possibility I am thinking, because the shot rests on top of other shot, it gets pushed by the shot behind it due to acceleration. As the shot infront leaves the barrel, the push from behind forces it sideways, so what if we let each shot layer rest on a thin cardboard strip instead of resting on top of other shot, maybe the lateral forces would be minimized due to cardboard having more friction than lead shot.
Btw, I did fail physics at high school, but only because the paper was very hard and I am a slower learner than the average person.


Don't you think that if it was as easy as you think, ammo makers would not have developed such loads? Just think of the marketing possibilities. Your wad idea is already in production by Federal. It's called the Flite Control wad.

I still say you need to go to a much larger gauge gun. Check out punt guns that were used by market gunners.


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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:13 am 
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Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 6:25 pm
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Location: On the wrong side of the river, Austin TX
Here's the biggest problem with trying to kill something at 100 yard ranges with birdshot.

Size 7 1/2 shot, velocity measured at 1 yard from the muzzle, 1200 ft per second.

20 yard velocity 874 fps
30 yard velocity 742 fps
40 yard velocity 636 fps
50 yard velocity 549 fps
70 yard velocity 410 fps
100 yard velocity 264 fps

You don't just run out of pattern density, you also run out of pellet energy and you fail to kill the game even if a pellet actually hits it.
264 fps is about what you can expect from a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun, only with a pellet that's smaller and lighter than an air rifle BB.

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 Post subject: Re: Increasing range of birdshot
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:28 am 
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I don’t think however much study and effort you put into it, or what gun and load you try to use, at ranges over 100 yards, you’ll end up with far more cripples resulting in lost game and needless suffering. That’s IF you hit anything in the first place. We owe the game we hunt far more than that . Please, just use these guns and loads for what they were designed to do.



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