ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:22 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:43 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 89
After listening to a show with Tom Roster on talking about various aspects of shotshell performance, it seems to me that the vast majority of hunting shells sold today are not what they should be. They are all way too fast. What don't they get about blown patterns and excessive recoil? This is true for lead or steel. IIRC he said lead does best from 1200-1300 fps and steel 1300-1400. Black cloud steel travels at 1500-1600, prairie storm at 1600 and remington hypersonic at 1700! Even most "premium" lead shells have shot travelling at 1400-1500. He explained that at high speeds copper plating would still not prevent pellet deformation. There was lots more he said that I forgot, but all I want is a true high antimony premium game shell, nickel plating would be nice too.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:08 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:29 am
Posts: 413
Location: Port St Lucie FL
What ammo companies understand very well is "what sells" , to the average Joe who knows little about actual performance "more is better", thus 3 1/2" shells, higher velocity and magnum calibers all at higher prices. Another good reason to load your own.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:34 am 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 26607
Location: Plainfield, IL
Life of Riley wrote:
After listening to a show with Tom Roster on talking about various aspects of shotshell performance, it seems to me that the vast majority of hunting shells sold today are not what they should be. They are all way too fast.


Quit yer bitchin'. No, the vast majority of hunting shells are not too fast, nor are the majority of them. Buy and use what you want.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:16 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5147
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
Yes, that is the reason I reload my own. I can load what I want when I want it! It has been said Americans have magnumitus! They will make anything people are stupid enough to buy! Nowhere is this better illustrated than in the shooting & boating industries. People don't care about the most efficient, they just want the biggest & the fastest! With a boat, efficiency tops out at what is called hull speed. Beyond that, more power gives you very little return but we are seeing 26' boats with 4, 300 hp. engines on them. The days you can run much more than 20 knots in the ocean in a 26' boat & come home with all your fillings still in your teeth are few & far between but that doesn't matter! The dealers love them! It is not hard to draw a parallel with shotguns & shotgun loads! Beware of the salesman!! It is bad enough to pay too much for something you need & will help you be successful but it is really sad to see people spend too much for something they THINK they need but really don't. Live & learn!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:17 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:22 pm
Posts: 189
Location: NE South Dakota
Ammo companies are always coming up with the next best thing for guys to buy that don't spend the time to pattern. Sometimes its speed, or a fancy wad, or belted shot, or square shot. Some people just gobble up the next thing which is most likely something old rebranded to sell more.

Personally, I reload all my shotshells and I pattern them. Most of my steel is 3.5" but not hot rodded to excessive speed. 1450 fps plus or minus works well and patterns well with my combo of wad/shot/guns and I tend to run 1 3/8 oz or 1 1/2 oz loads, depending on the case/hull I am reloading. I like the 3.5" to increase pattern density quite simply because there is more pellets. It doesn't really get me any more range but it decreases wounding for me at the same ranges. Everything from 4 shot to T shot gets loaded with the same load so my swing/lead is basically the same, just a change in spacers in the bottom of the shot cup to account for the stack height difference between small and large shot sizes. I have tried higher speeds but to get there payload must be decreased which negatively affects pattern density. Large steel shot starts to knuckle ball or group in patterns leaving holes for me above 1500 fps.

For lead 1300-1350 is as fast as I go for field loads. Most lead patterns fall apart above that for me and there really is no need to push lead any faster as it's speed/energy retention is so superior that if you are shooting the right sized pellet for your intended game they will kill well beyond ranges you actually have enough pattern left.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:00 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 26607
Location: Plainfield, IL
The best wild pheasant load I've ever tested is Winchester Rooster XR: 1-1/4 oz., 1300 fps. For 20 gauge, the Remington Nitro Pheasant (1-1/4 oz. 1185 fps). The Federal
Hi-Bird 12 Gauge Part # HVF12H 5 is an excellent load, 1-1/4 oz. at 1330 fps.

There is nothing in terms of velocity about these loads that wasn't common 50 years ago.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:18 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 7:19 pm
Posts: 1898
Location: Indian Head Country Wisconsin
For hunting loads, Winchester’s resin technology is worth the cost for lead loads but it’s not widely available at your local big box store. Roster has weighed in on true nickel plating as better, but not common. In OEM shells it’s only window dressing and not think enough to do any good. To get true Nickel plating you have to buy speciality pellets and hand load. See his column in this month’s Shooting Sportsman. But both of the above take a backseat to denser than lead pellets. They are harder than lead so don’t deform and higher density so you can drop down in pellet size for denser patterns. For upland game in steel approved guns that’s your holy grail. Pick your density and price point and go shoot. ITX or TSS. Have at it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:43 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5147
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
Southdakbearfan,
Very true, that sounds like experience talking. Engineers love to plot curves to examine things. If you plot curves of lead, steel & the exotic non- toxic shot types with velocity vs retained energy & pellet types & sizes, they all have different curves. The denser the shot, the less velocity & the smaller the shot size needs to be to maintain adequate pellet energy. Less dense pellets have to be bigger and/or faster to maintain the same energy level. High velocity can make up some of the difference but it runs out pretty fast. A steel pellet can be made large enough to have the same ballistic qualities as lead but it will be much larger & take up more room. Choosing wisely requires considering what you need from your loads in the way of pattern density & pellet energy at the expected range of your quarry. It is hard to argue with success so use whatever works for you but with lead, I usually look for loads around 1150 fps for smaller birds & 1200 fps for pheasants. I roll my own! I like bismuth a bit faster but have to wonder if it matters. I think the effect is mostly psychological. Going up a size is likely a better choice. What aggravates me is even the dense shot types are offered predominately in sizes that are too big! The only time you need shot bigger than #5's in pellets denser than lead is if the birds are bigger than mallards & unless they are 40+yds., 6's will work fine. IMHO, #2 & larger shot for chicken size birds is ridiculous with high density shot.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:31 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:22 pm
Posts: 189
Location: NE South Dakota
geometric wrote:
Southdakbearfan,
Very true, that sounds like experience talking. Engineers love to plot curves to examine things. If you plot curves of lead, steel & the exotic non- toxic shot types with velocity vs retained energy & pellet types & sizes, they all have different curves. The denser the shot, the less velocity & the smaller the shot size needs to be to maintain adequate pellet energy. Less dense pellets have to be bigger and/or faster to maintain the same energy level. High velocity can make up some of the difference but it runs out pretty fast. A steel pellet can be made large enough to have the same ballistic qualities as lead but it will be much larger & take up more room. Choosing wisely requires considering what you need from your loads in the way of pattern density & pellet energy at the expected range of your quarry. It is hard to argue with success so use whatever works for you but with lead, I usually look for loads around 1150 fps for smaller birds & 1200 fps for pheasants. I roll my own! I like bismuth a bit faster but have to wonder if it matters. I think the effect is mostly psychological. Going up a size is likely a better choice. What aggravates me is even the dense shot types are offered predominately in sizes that are too big! The only time you need shot bigger than #5's in pellets denser than lead is if the birds are bigger than mallards & unless they are 40+yds., 6's will work fine. IMHO, #2 & larger shot for chicken size birds is ridiculous with high density shot.


Basically, if you get down to individual pellet ballistics, if you know your lead/swing on a load it will kill out to beyond your range, basically.

Steel pellets started at 1750 vs 1400 fps basically may make a 5 yd difference in terminal range for a particular pellet. What you have to give up to get that 5 yds is the picture.

I will say my inlaws ran a very successfull wild pheasant hunting operation for 20+ years in south dakota near kimball. On a trial we took one group and paid for all their shells, but we furnished them with 1 3/8 oz fiocchi #2 shot. We made everyone a believer as we had no blown up birds and almost no wounded birds. In 25 years plus of pheasant hunting I have seen way more blown up birds with 6 and 5 shot than 2 shot. 2 shot doesn't really have the pattern density even with 1 3/8 oz as there are like 128 or so pellets. But one pellet kills a pheasant at 40 yds.

2 shot lead is my favorite pheasant pellet, late season. But I mostly load it in my 20 gauge.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:09 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 89
Patently Obvious wrote:
. Roster has weighed in on true nickel plating as better, but not common. In OEM shells it’s only window dressing and not think enough to do any good. To get true Nickel plating you have to buy speciality pellets and hand load. See his column in this month’s Shooting Sportsman. .


He mentioned this in the interview I heard. He stated that copper plating would work, but that as far as he is aware, all the copper plated shotshells available over the counter don't have thick enough copper to prevent shot deformation. I thought he said that nickel plated was better because it had to be applied by electrolysis and this would create a thick enough coating.

All this was part of why I made my original post. After listening to Tom the conclusion I came to was, most premium hunting shells are pushed a little too fast, and often copper plated with copper that is too thin and makes no difference. It would be nice to be able to buy over the counter a copper or nickel plated lead load that is done the right way with high antimony lead and a speed that is lethal but also with an emphasis on optimal pattern. I would be happy to pay $$$ for a shell like this.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:04 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
Posts: 920
There is much more variety available in shotshells than ever before. Between the major suppliers and the niche marketing firms there is plenty of choice.
As said above, the real innovation these days is in denser than lead pellets.
As far as paying for premium shells, the great majority of the buying public is looking for cheap.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:31 am 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 7:19 pm
Posts: 1898
Location: Indian Head Country Wisconsin
Agree. I picked up lots of the discontinued Federal Heavyweight shells in 20 gage from Midway this past winter. I will use them on nontox areas for pheasants or areas where there are creeks/potholes and pheasants. One shell, one choke, and can shoot at ducks or pheasants with a better than 12 gage steel shell and ditch my 12 gage which I previously needed to shoot 3 inch shells with #2 steel. For shooting situations where you walk a bunch and shoot a little, the cost is pretty insignificant.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:37 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5147
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
All of you have brought up some interesting points and arguments. I don't think I have ever had a problem with blown up birds but in recent years, all I have shot have been pretty wild flushing birds with flush dogs. Earlier, I used an open choked 20 ga. for the most part but I have seen what you are talking about. I have hunted rabbits with beagles a fair amount. A lot of people were using shot as small as 7.5's. Yes they killed rabbits at close range but what a mess! 4's kill them also & there is something left for the table. Also, tungsten will definitely kill at a greater distance than I can consistently hit anything & I am a pretty good long range shot if I must say so myself. I have killed a lot of pheasant at ranges I should not have shot at them with lead 5's. Go in the field choked for 60+ yard birds & what have you got at ranges you shoot at most birds? With ducks, I shoot tungsten alloy shot & bismuth exclusively. I have been killing quite a lot of ducks & geese at ranges the boys shooting steel don't even shoot at.
Plated shot is interesting. I read an article in the "American Rifleman years ago that said their tests indicated plated shot was a waste of money as high antimony magnum shot patterned just as well but they didn't say what plated shot they tested. They did test copper & nickel but I don't recall any other specifics if they were given. Lubaloy lubricated the shot, it wasn't intended to make it harder. That is about what I figured. High velocity steel gives you about 5 yds. more range but I really don't want to shoot 1750 + fps loads. They beat hell out of you & your gun. High density shot kills much farther at a sane velocity.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:45 am 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 26607
Location: Plainfield, IL
Life of Riley wrote:
It would be nice to be able to buy over the counter a copper or nickel plated lead load that is done the right way with high antimony lead and a speed that is lethal but also with an emphasis on optimal pattern. I would be happy to pay $$$ for a shell like this.


Winchester Rooster XR has been out for some time and has no peer. All you have to do is buy them.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:48 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 865
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
Gentlemen,

There are all kind of different shells available, even for my Classic American and German Best guns. In fact more now than at any other time. Further the shell manufactures know what sells, it's their business to supply shells to the American public and make a profit.

You can also roll your own, which I did for my 16 gauge guns for years, until RST & Poly came out with their 2 1/2" SpredR shells. Now I can purchase sells for my Classic American and German Best double guns, and have it sent by the case right to door in the back woods of Potter County, Pa.

Toms article was good but fell short of talking about all the different shells now available from many of the different manufacturers.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

_________________
L.C. Smith Man
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
Charlton Heston NRA Speakers Bureau Member
NRA Life Member/NRA Instructor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:34 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 89
RandyWakeman wrote:
Winchester Rooster XR has been out for some time and has no peer. All you have to do is buy them.


Thanks Randy, I will pick some up before the pheasant opener in MN. I just wasn't sure if they'd pattern too tight for early season with roosters flushing in close range. That said I hunt all season, so I'm sure they'll have a time and place.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:46 am 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 7:19 pm
Posts: 1898
Location: Indian Head Country Wisconsin
I tend to mainly shoot Fiochii Golden Pheasants for pheasants where lead is allowed and ducks not likely to be found too. Nickel plated for what it’s worth and loaded at around 1200 FPS. Widely available at big box stores like Cabellas, Fleet farm etc.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/fiocchi_golden_pheasant.htm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:33 am 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 26607
Location: Plainfield, IL
Life of Riley wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Winchester Rooster XR has been out for some time and has no peer. All you have to do is buy them.


Thanks Randy, I will pick some up before the pheasant opener in MN. I just wasn't sure if they'd pattern too tight for early season with roosters flushing in close range. That said I hunt all season, so I'm sure they'll have a time and place.


They pattern in concert with choke constriction.



They produce 85% 40 yard patterns with a factory Fabarm Modified choke. Your own pattern board informs you whether that is too dense for you. If so, then just use less constriction.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:35 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5147
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
A quality shell is the product of quality components. Know your gun & know what you are shooting. I haven't shot a factory loaded shell (except .22's) in so long I can't remember when it was. Velocity is not a disadvantage, provided you are getting decent patterns. Personally, I find 1200 fps is all the velocity I need in a pheasant load & they tend to pattern better than the hot rod loads. They won't reach as far as my 12 ga. w/ 1 1/4 oz. of #5's but I have had no problem killing pheasant w/ 1 oz. #6's in an open choked sxs 20 ga.. I often hunt with a 1 1/8 oz. load of #6's in a spreader wad in the rt. barrel of my 12, & 1 1/4 oz. #5's in the lt. barrel.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What don't the ammo companies understand???
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:46 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:03 am
Posts: 221
Location: Midwest
I hunt phez with a 20ga O/U, Mod over IC, over pointing dogs. My favorite load is Federal Prairie Storm 3" 1-1/4 oz (1300fps), 6's in the bottom bbl and 5's in the top. I've had good luck with Fiocchi Golden Pheasant, too, but the Prairie Storm kills more birds dead (less that hit the ground running) for me than any other load I've tried. Just my 2¢.

If I think there's a good chance of quail on a particular point, I'll sometimes swap the 3" shell out of the bottom bbl in favor of a 2-3/4" #7.5... which has resulted in a number of phez taken at fairly close range with careful headshots, lol.

For quail only, I use a 28ga O/U, IC over Skt, and Win AA 8's or 8.5's. I've used Golden Pheasant 5 shot out of my 28 on the occasional preserve phez hunt, the results of which I'd not try to equate to a wild bird scenario.



_________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Instructor
GOA Life Member
USN 1989-98


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 98052, Anschutz, BAArcher, BBshot, Bing [Bot], Colt99, coshimo, Evil Genius, fortunato, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], [email protected], GunnerFrank, Hal4son, Jaspo01, JD-Man, John H, Jolly Bill, msmith, oldshotty, Pgeurts, popcorn09, Rockett0, Rooster booster, Shooting Dave, Sottyman, southdakbearfan, StanofKansas, Tal/IL, wshumard


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice