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revdocdrew
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Post subject: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:03 pm |
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Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:16 pm Posts: 1317 Location: Glendale, AZ
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Belgian Shotgun IdentificationThe Banc d’Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. Most of the Belgian guns imported before WWI were not of high quality when new, and NO vintage shotgun should be fired, with any load, until examined by a double gun spam smith.Belgian makershttp://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a% ... s%20gb.htm Maker’s markshttp://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18490292 Belgian Trade names http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html Proof Marks - Poincons Officiels du Banc D'Epreuves de Liegehttp://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17575181 Final proof is the crowned ELG mark. The Perron (tower) indicates provisional blackpowder proof even on guns later voluntary proved with smokeless powder; which are marked with a Lion over PV. If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder.The usual c. 1900 Belgian 12 gauge bore would be 18.4 mm = .724" Conversion table - 1 millimeter = 0.0393700787 inches http://www.convertunits.com/from/mm/to/inches Date of ManufactureNON POUR BALLE - choked unrifled bores used 1878 - 18971898 - 1910 – Bore in mm (22 cm from breech) and muzzle (choke constriction) appear next to each other after ‘choke’ 1910 – 1924 – Bore in mm is over muzzle dimension Prior to 1924 the gauge would be indicated within a diamond. Post-1924 - A 12-70 in an Omega lying is the gauge and chamber length in mm., and would indicate the gun is chambered for 12ga 70mm - 2 3/4” length shells. Please note that many Belgian guns will be chambered for: 2 1/2” - 63mm 20g, 2 9/16” - 65mm 16g, and may be 2 5/8” 12g. Date of Proof codes– Lettres Annales used after 1921
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home
Put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry! Oliver Cromwell
Last edited by revdocdrew on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Drew Hause
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:05 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1866 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
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Another version of the Greek letters 1948-1961 Poincons Officiels du Banc D'Epreuves de Liege from "Trade & Hallmarks on Firearms in Belgium" Bruno Joos De Ter Beerst, 1998  1 millimeters = about 0.04 inches 70 mm = 2 3/4" chamber 17.0 = .670"; 16.3 = .642"; choke constriction of .028" or 16g Light Full 18.0 = .709; 18.7 = .736"; choke constriction of .027" or Improved Modified 18.4 was the usual c. 1900 Belgian 12b = .724" After 1924 the markings were "Choke" and bore only. Barrel weight at the time of Smokeless proof: 1 kilogram = 2.2046 pounds; 1.3555 Kg = 3 pounds. May also be stamped '1K3555' after 1924 without the decimal. If the barrels now weigh >3% less (from honing), the gun is considered out of proof
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home
Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness "Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."
Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."
Last edited by Drew Hause on Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:45 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Drew Hause
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:43 am |
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Diamond Grade |
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1866 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
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The Lion Rampant over PV was introduced for military rifles of 8mm & smaller in 1898 & then applied to the supplementary smokeless proof for shotguns in 1903. It was mandatory post-1924. Lion over SCH or EC were optional smokeless powder proofs used 1891-1924 for "Schultze" or "EC" powders.  1853-1877 inspector's (controller's) marks were crowned rather than spangled. PLEASE NOTE: Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost.Load data used 1897-1903  12g Manufacture Liegeoise likely proved with Mullerite (stylized lion over M) for a service load of 2.70 grams POUDRE = 41.67 grains = 3 Dr. Eq. (42 grains). "E.C." No. 1 & "Schultze" were also 42 gr. = 3 Dr. Eq. 36 grams PLOMBE = 1 1/4 oz. shot
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home
Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness "Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."
Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."
Last edited by Drew Hause on Thu May 30, 2019 5:59 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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MarkusO
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:43 am |
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Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:30 am Posts: 3 Location: Umeå, Sweden
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Hi! I have inherited a F.Dumoulin & Cie Liege of my grandfather. It has been a little difficult to identify which year that the shotgun is made .. And I hope to be able to use this fine weapon to hunt grouse in the future, just like my grandfather did. Hope you can help me! Klick on the link to see the markings on the shotgun. regards Markus https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka
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jlachasse
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:10 pm |
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:28 pm Posts: 108
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Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. Best regards
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Drew Hause
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:57 pm |
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Diamond Grade |
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1866 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
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Belgian Service & Proof Load PressuresBanc D'Epreuves Des Armes a Feu De Liege (Proof House for Firearms of Liege) 1906 https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA ... g=PA52&lpg12g - about 1 1/4 oz. / 3 1/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps). (12g 5.8 grams = 89.5 grains = 3 1/4 Dram) 16g - about 1 oz. / 2 1/2 Dram Eq. (1165 fps). 20g - about 7/8 oz. / 2 1/4 Dram Eq. (1155 fps). Powder was not specified, but appears to be a Black Powder No. 4 After the proof house revisions of 1924, a Certificat d’epreuve could be issued and specified: “The pressure developed, measured by crusher type device , lower or equal to 600 kg per square centimeter for sizes 16, 12, 10, 8 & 4; 670 pounds per square inch for sizes 20, 24 and smaller.” 600 kg/cm2 = 8534 psi SERVICE pressure; 670 kg/cm2 = 9530 psi SERVICE pressure + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. 20 g was PROVED at 1000 kg/cm2 = 14,223 psi 12g PROVED at 900 kg/cm2 = 12,801 psi Transducer numbers for 20g would be close to 15,500 psi; 12g about 14,000 psi  The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives standards were not ratified until 1969. http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en ... _type_id=7Pressures are measured by transducers12g 65mm and 70mm “standard proof” lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm and max. fps 1,300) SERVICE pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi; Maximum statistical individual pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi; PROOF 930 BAR = 13,489 psi. Both 65 and 70 mm 16g standard is SERVICE 780 BAR or 11,313 psi; PROOF 980 BAR or 14,214 psi. Both 65 and 70 mm 20g standard is SERVICE 830 BAR or 12,038 psi; PROOF 1040 BAR or 15,084 psi.
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home
Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness "Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."
Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."
Last edited by Drew Hause on Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Drew Hause
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:13 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1866 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
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Lettre Annale / Date of Control marks can be difficult to decipher Lower case cursive 'p' = 1937 Spangled B = controller's mark Stylized lion over PV = Smokeless Proof Crowned ELG = post-1893 12-70 in an Omega lying = post 1924 gauge and chamber length in mm. Les lettres de l'alphabet
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home
Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness "Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."
Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."
Last edited by Drew Hause on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Drew Hause
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:36 am |
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1866 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
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Outlawman7
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:49 pm |
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Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 1:39 pm Posts: 3
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Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. It’s complete. It’s very old but I’d like to know more about it. I’m a ypunger collector/gun activist. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. I’m very excited and can’t wait for some replies. Thank y’all for your help ahead of time! I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. I’m very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. I can’t find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! Thank y’all again!
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landyvlad
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:22 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:23 am Posts: 21 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours.
_________________ Yildiz .410 SxS CZ 12G SxS Liege 12G SxS (1925)
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Loboloco
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:37 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:15 pm Posts: 1
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I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I’m very curious as to why there is an “FN” above the serial #. Any help would be appreciated.
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Drew Hause
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:28 pm |
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Diamond Grade |
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1866 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
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Rman52
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:38 pm |
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Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:04 pm Posts: 1
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Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made
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tinker73
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:11 am |
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:52 am Posts: 5
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My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. I recently decided to clean it up. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Quite old.    Maybe someone could determine year of production (I cannot determine is it letter d, j or delta in red encircled), manufacurer... Some help: S with asterix - inspector proof mark (C. Daenen) - 1952-68. Jean Falla bore maker - 1931-53. Greek letters are used - 1948-61.
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Drew Hause
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:51 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1866 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
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tinker73
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:13 am |
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:52 am Posts: 5
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Yes, it could be letter - j (1931). But It is not going togheter with inspector proof (S asterix - C. Daenen, operative 1952-68).
One more question ....I have checked all markings and I couldnt find manufacurer signature. There are only proofmarkings of all kind. Is there any chance to determine manufacutrer at all ? ...
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Drew Hause
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:56 am |
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1866 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
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Where did you find the Falla mark? If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frères There appears to be a mark forward of the flats on the R barrel - ?PM Inspector's marks can not be used to date guns - the significance of some has been lost and they were re-used over time.
_________________ http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home
Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness "Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."
Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."
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tinker73
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:00 am |
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:52 am Posts: 5
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Yes - JF mark,.... I connected it to Jean Falla... You are correct - there is another marking, but I have to check it at home...  Maybe RM
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tinker73
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:57 pm |
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:52 am Posts: 5
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Drew Hause
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Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:28 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm Posts: 1866 Location: AZ (heart in KS)
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