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 Post subject: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:47 am 
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I am new to this so please help. I have an old E James & Co shotgun with double triggers and hammers. I know the markings on the underside of the barrel give clues to the origin and model so here goes. I have seen stamps before that indicate gauge like "12" and "20" and so on. This one has an "11" stamped on both barrels. It also has the English markings being the crossed halberds with a crown over them. There also is a "v" stamped in the bottom portion of the halberds. Next to or near the halberds is a"WJ". The "WJ" and the halberds are in four places on the underside (twice on each barrel and always next to each other). There is one other stamp that is partially readable. It is "**EF38S". The first two letters/numbers are unreadable. I am trying to learn how to post pics and I will do so when I can figure it out. Any info you can give me from this post is much appreciated.




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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Enos/Enoch James & Co. was established as gun, rifle and pistol makers in 1877 at 36-38 Staniforth Street, Birmingham. In 1889 they took additional premises at 14 St Mary's Row. They produced at least 2 models of shotguns, the "Knickerbocker Club Gun" in at least 2 grades (1875-1890) and the "James Club Gun" (1875-1914). Both guns had several models in each grade.
'WJ' is probably William Henry James, Gunmaker who was in business at 48 Whitall St. Birmingham in 1868. W.H. James was joined by Charles (a brother?) and continued at 48 Whitall until 1873. William was later a partner with Enos James.
Guns marked W. H. James were listed in the Lamberson, Furman & Co., Chicago catalog. W. James filed British patents #85.532 and #90.12744 for "Twist damascus."

1881

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'11' means the bore at the time of proof was .751"-.762" or a tight 10g

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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:35 pm 
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Is this a sidelever opening gun?


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:54 pm 
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I don't think so. I have never seen a sidelever opening gun but the lever is between the hammers and is pushed to the right side to open the gun.


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:56 am 
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john d2468 wrote:
I don't think so. I have never seen a sidelever opening gun but the lever is between the hammers and is pushed to the right side to open the gun.


No then, you have a top opening lever. I was just curious because I just had an E James & Co. sidelever sent to me. I sent the gun back (prearranged with owner) as it had more problems than I wanted to deal with. It was a nice gun though.


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:54 am 
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Thank you guys for sharing your knowledge. What is the value of this gun? Does the tight 10ga make it any more valuable. Is pretty well worn and has been under a bed for several years. I am checking into this for a friend and would like to be able to give her an estimate. It was her grandfathers so there is no chance of selling it but does she need to add it to her insurance policy? Thanks again for any help or advice.


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Insurance policies and retail price are usually 2 different things. The insurance company might want a document from an actual appraiser. That being said, the gun I looked at was the same as yours ,that being it had #11 stamped on the barrels for a tight bore 10 gauge. That does not add to value. Prices might be different where you are but I had paid $500.00 for the one I looked at. I figured it was too much after I had the gun in hand. The stocked was cracked internally behind the lockplate, there was a small crack in the action by a screw hole and the twist barrels needed refinishing. But as I mentioned, the seller promptly refunded my money as the deal hinged on my inspection of the gun. By your description of condition, I doubt very much your gun has a high value. These old guns have to be in top original condition by a well respected maker to be worth the big money.


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:44 pm 
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I just acquired a E. James 12 GA SxS. Has 30" Damascus (not twist) steel barrels. Top lever to break open. S/N 8297 with code on barrel E. JFF3D (as best I can tell). Also each barrel has a 13 or 15 stamped which I assume refers to the choke. Plain steel butt plate. The top rib is engraved E. James & Co. with the Loveday St. address.

I plan to restore it and any back-ground info would be helpful. Thanks In advance.


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:29 am 
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Unfortunately Cornell Pubs does not list an Enos James catalog reprint.
A few models c. 1880 are shown at the top here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20091267

We need full size in focus close up images of every mark on the barrel flats and action flats to date the gun.
The 13 and 15 refer to the bore size; depending on DOM about .710" and .677".

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"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:57 pm 
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Forest & Stream 8-6-1883
https://books.google.com/books?id=p0QhA ... =PA120&lpg
Enos James & Co. Trap Gun

Image

_________________
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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:15 am 
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I'll try to submit a photo as soon as I figure out how to do it. In addition to what I've said before the gun has nice engraving and no cap on the pistol grip. Only the S/N and crossed halberds on action body water table. S/Ns are stamped next to the forearm iron lug on barrel. No stamping on barrel water table.

Stamping on barrels is E.JF113D. The E.J is for E James -- the rest is ?????. 13 appears to be stamped on each barrel.

I've worked on Remington SxSs many years and some (most) of the barrel coding is lost to the mists of time.


Last edited by dienusse1 on Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:25 am 
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OK can't figure it out. I can email it if you like.


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:47 pm 
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Finally able to post photo in photo section. File # 1/21140 under recent additions. Also I noticed R.W stamped just behind the forearm iron lug.


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:00 pm 
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https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg141 ... at=0&pos=0
We still need an image of the barrel flats.

_________________
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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:09 am 
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There are no stampings on the barrel flats. On the action body flats there is only the S/N and crossed halberts. I don't have the original forearm iron but the one I have is stamped with a S/N (12602) and F305 or F30S on the other side. I'm not 100% sure this is a E. James iron as I bought it as such from Numrich last month. Seems to be a match but ????

If you still want pics of barrel flats please let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:03 am 
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As a followup -- What barrels were offered? Steel, Damascus, Twist? With the Remingtons I have experienced you could order almost any Damascus pattern in a model 1894. In addition several types of steel could be had (Krupp, Wittworth, Remington, Nickel and Ordnance).

In the case of the 1900 only Remington steel and 2 line (Oxford 2 S. J.) Damascus barrels were offered.

I can't quite make out what Damascus pattern I have. I'll have to wait until I finish blueing.


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:42 am 
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The barrels are crolle damascus, probably 2 Iron

I have never seen a British gun without marks on the flats. This is a c. 1880 Purdey with 3 Iron

Image

British actions were imported to the U.S. to be finished here, and would have no proof marks. Barrels in the white would have Provisional Proof. It is possible that James supplied the action, which was then finished by Crescent for Folsom?

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:35 pm 
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I guess we have a mystery here. The top rib is engraved E. James & Co. with the Loveday Street Birmingham address. The side plates are engraved E. James & Co.

I repeat - there is no stamping on the barrel flat. Stamping is found only between the flat and forearm attachment lug. The S/N is stamped on either side of the forearm attachment lug. What I've pictured is all there is.

As far as I can tell there is no reference to either Crescent or Folsom.


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:28 pm 
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I wonder if Folsom tried to pull a fast one ala Shoverling, Daly & Gales c. 1890
https://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/ ... -goo.shtml
Schoverling, Daly & Gales had imported the gunstocks in question, and had made an agreement with another firm by which the latter were to order the barrels, with the mutual expectation that the stocks and barrels, after arriving at New York, were to be put together so as to make complete guns ; that Schoverling was a member of both firms thus colluding together... (to avoid the ad valorum duty on a complete gun)

So Folsom uses one importer for the E. James barrels, which have not received final proof, and another for the E. James action and buttstock.

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: E James & Co Loveday St Birm- I need info on this gun pl
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:45 pm 
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Sounds rather shady.

Any idea of date of manufacture? Were these suitable for nitro powders?

Remingtons of this era were guaranteed for nitro at least for models 1889, 1894 and 1900. When loading I keep the pressure to about 5000psi. Also have shot a lot of BP loads. A lot of fun but messy cleanup.




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