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 Post subject: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:26 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:16 am
Posts: 6
Hello,
I just picked up an old Ithaca Double barrel from a local gun shop. I think it’s a 1906 Ithaca Minier 12 gauge grade 2. Let me know if it is and what is the current value please.




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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:07 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 5009
Location: WA/AK
You just bought it in an arms length transaction, so that is the value.


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:17 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1869
Location: AZ (heart in KS)
It appears to be in nice shape, and the Krupp barrels are certainly a plus.
But without establishing that the barrels have not been cut, if choke remains, if the barrels been honed, and the resulting wall thicknesses, it is not possible to estimate value.
What is the mark just forward of the left barrel flat?

Unfortunately today there is limited market interest in vintage doubles, unless high grade or very high condition.

_________________
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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:26 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:16 pm
Posts: 3523
Location: New England
.

Welcome to SGW, cmichales ! ! {hs#

If you ever decide to shoot it, please don't use modern ammo - use low-pressure ammo from the likes of RST, Kent Cartidge, etc, etc.


.

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["CriscoKid", alias: Fat in the Can]


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:45 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:16 am
Posts: 6
The barrels are 28 inch with original ivory sights. The mark on left barrel is just a smudge in the finish.
Thanks for the response

Drew Hause wrote:
It appears to be in nice shape, and the Krupp barrels are certainly a plu NV s.
But without establishing that the barrels have not been cut, if choke remains, if the barrels been honed, and the resulting wall thicknesses, it is not possible to estimate value.
What is the mark just forward of the left barrel flat?

Unfortunately today there is limited market interest in vintage doubles, unless high grade or very high condition.


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:16 am
Posts: 6
It was checked by a gunsmith and said it’s a shooter. Bores are like new. One barrel is full and other is modified choke.


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:49 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 301
Location: FL
Crisco’s concern is likely related to chamber length.
My old 1913 Ithaca had 2 9/16” chambers. Modern cartridges are 2 3/4”.
A cartridge that is longer than the chamber will increase the pressure.


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:14 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:51 pm
Posts: 10928
Location: Phoenixville PA
That's the main concern with early guns (made prior to 1930s) - they have to be checked for chamber length. And remember - they have very sharp forcing cones, which were required by the old this-walled paper shells and wads to prevent gas blow-by. This causes an increase in chamber pressure if you use modern 2 3/4 shells in them.

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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:16 am
Posts: 6
What about using the mini shells? 1 3/4 challenger for example.


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:34 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1869
Location: AZ (heart in KS)
Did the gunsmith who evaluated the gun not measure the chamber length??

There is an easy way to measure chamber length using a 3" x 5" index card, rolled lengthwise, and slid into the chamber. It will partially unroll and expand to the chamber diameter.
Gently advance the card until it stops at the end of the chamber (where the forcing cone constriction starts), use a pencil to mark the card at the breech end of the barrel, and repeat the steps to see if it always comes to same spot.
Then use a ruler to measure the length marked on the card.
The chamber must be clean, and it works best with a new 3” X 5” card.

The chambers are likely 2 5/8" and IF the wall thickness has been measured, breech to muzzle and are adequate, and there are no cracks in the head of the stock, standard 1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps (3 Dr.Eq.) have less pressure and recoil than loads for which the gun was designed. 1 oz. would be even better :) Modern turkey loads are NOT what the gun was designed to handle.

Scroll down about 1/3 here for a summary of Sherman Bell's "Long Shells in Short Chambers" study
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo ... c-kGA/edit

Please let us know what the chambers measure.

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:52 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:16 pm
Posts: 3523
Location: New England
Drew Hause wrote:

Did the gunsmith who evaluated the gun not measure the chamber length??

The chambers are likely 2 5/8" and IF the wall thickness has been measured, breech to muzzle and are adequate, and there are no cracks in the head of the stock, standard 1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps (3 Dr.Eq.) have less pressure and recoil than loads for which the gun was designed.

1 oz. would be even better :)

Modern turkey loads are NOT what the gun was designed to handle.



+1

There are gunsmiths...... and then, there are gunsmiths (many are just parts-changers, or used to working on modern guns)..........

Gunsmiths not intimately familiar with double guns usually have no clue about measurements like bbl wall thickness, loose rib's, being off face, chamber length, etc, etc.

Most here are VERY familiar with double guns, having owned/shot/hunted and work on for a looooong time (50 years, for me).

.

_________________
["CriscoKid", alias: Fat in the Can]


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:01 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 5009
Location: WA/AK
Quote:
What is the mark just forward of the left barrel flat?


It is the Krupp cartouche as normally found at the end of the line -- FLUID -- STEEL -- KRUPP -- ESSEN -- on the bottom of Krupp barrels.

Image

Ithaca's No, 2 Krupp Pigeon Gun is probably one of the best of vintage Ithaca doubles for a shooter. I don't have a Minier era catalog, but here is the No. 2 Krupp Pigeon Gun in a Flues-era catalog --

Image


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:30 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:16 am
Posts: 6
More pics


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 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:42 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:16 am
Posts: 6
I measured it 10 times. I measure 3 inches. So it’s chambers are 2 3/4?
Thanks

Drew Hause wrote:
Did the gunsmith who evaluated the gun not measure the chamber length??

There is an easy way to measure chamber length using a 3" x 5" index card, rolled lengthwise, and slid into the chamber. It will partially unroll and expand to the chamber diameter.
Gently advance the card until it stops at the end of the chamber (where the forcing cone constriction starts), use a pencil to mark the card at the breech end of the barrel, and repeat the steps to see if it always comes to same spot.
Then use a ruler to measure the length marked on the card.
The chamber must be clean, and it works best with a new 3” X 5” card.

The chambers are likely 2 5/8" and IF the wall thickness has been measured, breech to muzzle and are adequate, and there are no cracks in the head of the stock, standard 1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps (3 Dr.Eq.) have less pressure and recoil than loads for which the gun was designed. 1 oz. would be even better :) Modern turkey loads are NOT what the gun was designed to handle.

Scroll down about 1/3 here for a summary of Sherman Bell's "Long Shells in Short Chambers" study
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo ... c-kGA/edit

Please let us know what the chambers measure.


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 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How much is my old Ithaca double worth?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:37 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1869
Location: AZ (heart in KS)
The chambers are 3", and may have been lengthened. Some Live Bird and Inanimate Target guns DID leave the factory with 3" chambers; not for more shot or powder but for additional wadding.
"Mirror bores" BTW in a 115 year old gun suggest honing at some point.

A doublegun smith needs to confirm the chamber length, and measure the end of chamber, forcing cone, and every inch of the barrel wall thickness.



_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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