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 Post subject: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:20 am
Posts: 17
I'm trying to learn more about ID'ing some of these older shotguns. Greeners have caught my fascination (I'm not entirely sure why, they just have...), though whether I buy one remains to be seen. This one, for example, appears to be pretty inexpensive, likely due to damage the muzzle (a small dent or lip, by the pictures) and a couple of hairline cracks in the wrist. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/884990459

The serial number is 44577, and I got a clearer picture of the barrel lug(?) with the proof marks. If I'm reading it right, it was proofed at the Birmingham proof house circa 1900-ish. It appears that it was proofed for nitro powders, with the crossed scepters, crown, and V on one mark, an the 12 C inside a diamond. I'm not sure what the 13 means. Could one of y'all more educated members let me know if I'm on the right track identifying these?Image




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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:13 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: North Alabama
Interesting stamps of >>England<< and >>2 7/8 Case<<. Maybe it was made for export or finished elsewhere? 13 is a bore diameter, many times a vulgar fraction. 12 in a Rhombus is the gauge.

Could you pleasure us w/ a image of the area just forward of the flats?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:27 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:20 am
Posts: 17
ellenbr wrote:
Interesting stamps of >>England<< and >>2 7/8 Case<<. Maybe it was made for export or finished elsewhere? 13 is a bore diameter, many times a vulgar fraction. 12 in a Rhombus is the gauge.

Could you pleasure us w/ a image of the area just forward of the flats?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Here you go.

Am I on track with it being nitro proofed, or did I miss something there?Image

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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:34 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: North Alabama
How does it read >>Steel???<< and the initials beside the lower rib?

W. W. GREENER
SERIALIZATION
Year Starting Serial Number
1878 19304
1880 22860
1895 38917
1902 50911
1915 58536
1920 62621
1930 68635
1967 79259

Serbus,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:37 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: North Alabama
For the moment, I do not see the stamp of >>Nitro<<, which typically appears circa 1896?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:42 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 9:19 am
Posts: 1982
Location: Columbia, SC
The gun does not appear to be nitro proofed - black powder proofs only. If nitro proofed it would have the words "nitro proof" or a mark "crown/NP".

The 13 is the bore 9" from the breech - it originally had a bore diameter somewhere between .710" and .719" (I can't locate online the plug diameter that went to 9" right now) but it was fairly common to have 12 gauge chambered guns with 13 gauge diameter barrels.

Based on a serialization list the gun dates between 1895 and 1902:

W. W. GREENER
SERIALIZATION
Year Starting SER. # END
1878 19304
1880 22860
1895 38917
1902 50911
1915 58536
1920 62621
1930 68635
1967 79259

If the second post in this thread is correct the gun dates before 1899 and would not require an FFL transfer - https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ub ... ber=548990

The photos on Gunbroker are very dark and leave a lot of questions unanswered because details aren't clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:17 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:20 am
Posts: 17
Ok, thanks for the additional info. One thing I wasn't sure about was whether it would actually read Nitro Proof every time or if there were variations. So, for any English shotgun out of Birmingham, it should at least have the NP-and-crown, if not the actual words?

I asked the seller if the gun had been refinished or anything, and his response was that it is part of an estate sale and that he has very little info on the history. Makes me wonder if they are Damascus barrels that have been blued???

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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:30 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: North Alabama
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/514-2

View the British break lines in proof above. Here you can see that either the term >>Nitro<< has to be present or a Nitro type stamp, depending on year of proof.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:32 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: North Alabama
Submit an email to Greener with the serial number & see if they respond. A fee may be involved?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:44 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:20 am
Posts: 17
ellenbr wrote:
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/514-2

View the British break lines in proof above. Here you can see that either the term >>Nitro<< has to be present or a Nitro type stamp, depending on year of proof.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
I had read that one, which is what prompted my question. If we assume that the Greener in this example was made between 1895 and 1904 (based on the serial number), it looks like some proof marks might indicate black powder specifically (as indicated by the BP) while others are more clearly Nitro (as indicated by the word "nitro" [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH AND SMILING EYES]). It was the marks in the middle, one of which was marked in this Greener's lug, that made less sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:03 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: North Alabama
Provisional Proof for the Guardians is the characters >>BP<< interlaced in a cypher surmounted by a Crown and are high on the tubes, forward of the flats.

Definitive Proof for the Guardians is the stamp of Crossed Scepters with the characters BPC surmounted by a Crown and coupled with the view mark of Crossed Scepters with the character V surmounted by a Crown.

I don't see the mark here, but there was a Special Definitive Proof stamp for a longarm in the final state having the characters VBP interlaced in a cypher surmounted by a Crown.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:03 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:20 am
Posts: 17
ellenbr wrote:
Submit an email to Greener with the serial number & see if they respond. A fee may be involved?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
I would if I actually bought it, but I don't know if I want to spend $50 for the info on a gun I don't own.

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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:21 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: North Alabama
That is just the value for information...... Nothing in life is free.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:25 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: North Alabama
Permit me to qualify that, nothing in life of value is free.....



Serbus,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: Year and proof of Greener shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:45 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: North Alabama
You'll have to weigh if you will let $50 stand between you and the Shangri La of W.W. Greener info on longarm Nr. 44577??


Serbus,

Raimey
rse




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