ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:36 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:25 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:39 am
Posts: 2
I have recently inherited this side by side shotgun and am looking for information about it. The barrel is stamped flus5 stahl krupp essen. Looks to be 16 gauge to me. I have enclosed some pics of the other stampings. Any help would be appreciated!




You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:46 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:44 pm
Posts: 2
Hello and welcome! I'm not an expert but from the proofmarks I can tell you that the shotgun is definitely a 16 gauge proofmarked in the Suhl proofhouse (Eastern Germany) between 1950 and 1999 (you can check here: http://www.shotguns.se/html/east_germany.html).

Krupp was a german steel/armaments company from Essen (Westphalia) active from 1881 to 1999 later merged with Thyssen into ThyssenKrupp (still active). So the barrels are probably made of steel from that company ("stahl" should mean steel in german, too).

I can't tell you much about the manufacturer though... this is probably where someone else can help you more than me! Sorry about that :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:42 am 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:55 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Småland
Hello

I see a date code marking that points to 1927. March, June or August 1927. I can't really make out the first digit. So, it's a pre-WW2 shotgun in my opinion. The circled S&S may be for J.P. Sauer & Sohn. For now I've no idea what WB might signify. I'll check if I can find anything.

EDIT: June 1927 it passed proof. Both barrels have some degree of constriction.

EDIT: spelling

Kind regards
Peter


Last edited by älgmule on Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:56 am 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:55 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Småland
Hello

Here are some suggestions. Allow me to stress that they are mere suggestions and are to be treated as such:

Wilhelm Barthelmes, Büchsenmacher, Suhl
Waldemar Böttcher, Büchsenmacher, Suhl
Wilhelm Borsch, Büchsenmacher, Suhl
Willy Brandt, Büchsenmacher, Suhl
Wilhelm Braungardt, Büchsenmacher, Suhl
Wilhelm Braungardt, Gewehrfabrik, Suhl
Willi Büttner, Gewehrpolierer, Suhl
Wilhelm Bader, Büchsenmacher, Zella-Mehlis
Walther Barthelmes, Gewehr-Händler, Zella-Mehlis
Willibald Barthelmes, Büchsenmacher, Zella-Mehlis
Wilhelm Diemb, Rohrmacher, Suhl

As for the S&S in an oval:
J. P. Sauer & Sohn, Abteilung Lauffabrikation, Steinsfeld (Suhl)

The above names fit the time frame (around) 1927 but, as stated, they are mere suggestions.

1925 is the last year I have a mentioning of a barrel making facility at Steinsfeld (Suhl). In 1928 there's no mentioning of J. P. S&S having such a facility in or around Suhl so it's POSSIBLE that it stopped some time between 1925 and 1928. It may very well have continued but, as mentioned, there's no reference to it.

Is there no name on the rib/tubes? May we have some further images?

Here's a link that leads you to the meaning/s of the word possible for those that need it
https://www.google.com/search?q=meaning+of+possible&oq=meaning+of+possible&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.6896j1j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Kind regards
Peter


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:11 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1100
Location: North Alabama
Great to see you are minding the Store there Peter. The date looks like a 6 so June.

It could easily be a Sauer & Sohn „Rehier“ or a Modell Nr. II +, but really need additional images of the sides of the frame to see if there exists a >>Greener Crossbolt<<. Also images of the area around the forend hanger and muzzle might net some info. Also, F.W. Keßler had a similar hahn >>Doppelflinten<<. Anything on the buttplate or top rib?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:27 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1100
Location: North Alabama
Considering the fact that it passed thru the Suhl proof facility, for now I would rule out those Z-M mechanics. Too, that >>1419<< along with the encircled >>WB<< just may be a waffenhandler / firearms merchant in Suhl.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:07 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:39 am
Posts: 2
Thank all of you for the information! I will post a few more picks shorty.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:54 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1100
Location: North Alabama
Looks like the mechanic WB may have finished it & retailed it. I see >>LK<< as well as another >>S&S<< on the opposite tube?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:08 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:55 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Småland
Hello

I can't make out the marking that's either L.K or E.K, or possibly even E.R. Below are some suggestions. Again, they are mere suggestions.

First the WB:
2xWilhelm Brühl, both Büchsenmacher, Suhl, the second Wilhelm had a business together with Gustav Nothnagel (Büchsenmacher, Suhl) but the business was in the graphic trade.
Wilhelm Braungardt (mentioned in an above post) the business had an owner by the name
of Friedrich Härtling, Gewehrfabrikant, Suhl
Walter Berlet, Büchsenmacher, Zella-Mehlis

L.K/E.K/E.R?
Ernst Recknagel, Rohrmacher, Suhl
Emil Reinhardt, Büchsenmacher, Suhl
Ernst Reinhardt, Büchsenmacher, Suhl
Ernst Reiche, Büchsenmacher, Suhl
Edmund Rickel, Büchsenmacher, Suhl
Ernst Röder, Büchsenmacher, Suhl
Ernst Kelber, Rohrmacher, Suhl
Ernst Kober, Rohrmacher, Suhl
Eduard Köhler, Rohrmacherei, Suhl

Whether a marking L.K, E.K, or E.R, all the above names fit the time frame in or around 1927. The only name that fits L.K and the time around 1927 is Louis Kelber, Gewehrlauffabrikant, and I'm not up to date as to when the Kelber brothers parted ways but in 1928 they had gone separate ways.

As for titles, my view is that most Büchsenmachers and Rohrmachers were employed by some establishment. Out-work did occur but the further in time the less common it became.

If it's not too much to ask, could we be informed if there is a name on the rib or on the tubes, please? If no name on top it would be weird that WB (in oval), if "manufacturer", did not put his full name atop. Why hide his trade mark (twice) when he might as well have put his full name atop? If WB was the retailer it would be even weirder with his name not atop. Again, further images may reveal things.

Kind regards
Peter


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:42 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1100
Location: North Alabama
For that position and considering block letters, the only initials I have seen that were similar was >>LK<<.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:22 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:16 pm
Posts: 3427
Location: New England
.

Me likey hammerguns ! {P^

AFAIK, the plain/circled "16" denotes short (2-9/16") chambers, since 2-3/4" chamberings are also marked with the new/longer chamber length (2-3/4" = 70mm).

I may be preaching to the choir, but: although 2-3/4" unfired shells will readily chamber, if fired in the short chamber, the crimp will partially block the passage of the shot charge, as there's no space for the crimp to open fully.

.

_________________
["CriscoKid", alias: Fat in the Can]


Last edited by CriscoKid on Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:25 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1100
Location: North Alabama
You are spot on and it needs to be preached continuously. The pressure spikes, the actions becomes off face, the stock becomes cracked & your cheek-bone takes a beating.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: German Shotgun Brought Home from WW2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:05 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:51 pm
Posts: 10894
Location: Phoenixville PA
16 ga. 2 9/16" chambers are virtually "standard" for euro guns, and US made 16s were chambered for 2 9/16" shells until the 1930s with some manufacturers holding out until almost 1940. You have to be careful when you get even an older US made 16 gauge.



_________________
BobK


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 47MolineRTU, aytas535, Bing [Bot], birdhunter39, Bladeswitcher, casonet, DeltaEliteMan, DicksonB, Digger60, double20, dpe2002, Dr Duk, drawdc, dubob, Fitasc2, Flyn'dutchman, garrisonjoe, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], gthudspeth, Henning, Husker90, John H, JoM, jusanothajoe, Kannoncocker, lossking, Majestic-12 [Bot], Mark Pfeifer, mb94, msmith, mtgrs737, ohio mike, Oldandrusty, OliverKing, paulaner, PawleysJim, pitandremington, Researcher01, rkittine, saddlerocker, saskbooknut, Scardog7, Supermario, SuperXOne, TEH, The Rattler, TimNichols, twohigh, Vette Jockey2, wcurlin, Wheelspin


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice