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 Post subject: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:52 am 
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Gentlemen,

in an other post :

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=179695

I presented my 16 ga. SN 8858. It did come with a recoil spring having a square cross-section (profile). Because of this, Jeff Mull mentioned:

Jeff Mull wrote:
BTW, it looks like the recoil spring was also replaced. It is a Remington Model 11 spring.


I don’t had any reasons to doubt this, because Jeff is THE expert on really old A5s here. I just wondered about it, because my A5 is a European gun never been in the US. So, how comes a Remington 11 spring in a European A5?? The Remington 11s never were sold here. So, under normal circumstances, you will not find any Remington parts in a vintage A5 in Europe.

Interestingly, an A5 in 16 ga. SN 13xxx owned by “Tijeras_Slim” also comes with a square section recoil spring.

Well, just recently, I bought an early FN manual for the A5 which was exported to Australia (an Australian address of the former owner is present). No printing date, but I’m quiet sure, it was printed between 1909 (both the 12 ga. and the 16 ga. are shown) and the outbreak of WWI.

Image

Image

Image


What is most interesting is a large foldout showing sectional drawings of an A5. There, you can clearly see: a recoil spring having a square cross-section.

Image

Image

Image

The question arises, when the change from square to round cross-section occurred? Before 1923 I guess, but this is just a hunch.

Regards

Martin

Has anybody Jeff’s email address? I liked to know his opinion, but it seems, he wasn’t active here for a while.



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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:32 am 
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Nice find. Your informative posts are most appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:46 pm 
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Have you tried to PM Jeff?
I know if someone PM's me it will send a notice to my email.
Also nice find. I really like seeing the info and guns from out of country.

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:09 pm 
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It may have been prudent to make the springs from square stock for a time, or maybe Rem. supplied many of the early springs to FN? They did have agreements and such regarding US sales, distribution, production, etc. until the 20's. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:42 am 
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@Tijeras_Slim: Thanks!

@loadbreak: yes, I sent him a PM here and on an other forum where he’s a member. Hopefully, he will read one of them.

@ALMODOUX:

I think, the first possibility is more likely. I don’t think, Remington supplied springs to FN.

Reason:

In all Browning patents where the recoil spring is visible they are shown with square cross-section, e. g. Browning’s US patent # 689, 283 of Dec. 17, 1901.

FN started production in 1903 and the ultra-early A5s do have all features John M. Browning designed. Also, the Remington 11s strictly followed Browning’s specifications.

Contrary to Remington FN quickly made some improvements on the A5: while the Remington wasn’t changed for years, the FNs did have a couple of amendments:

safety changed in 1904 and 1909
Magazine cut-off introduced in 1907
Locking screws introduced in 1909
Reinforcing “bump” introduced in 1909
Fat carrier latch button introduced in 1909

And so on…

So, the A5 was permanently improved, while the Remington was not. I think, the recoil spring also was changed at some point.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:37 am 
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Any idea when the barrel ring changed on the early guns from the one like the Remington 11 to the type seen in the 20's and 30's?

I wonder if a model 11 barrel might fit an early A-5.


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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:15 am 
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Lots of good info here. Thanks guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Quote:
Reinforcing “bump” introduced in 1909


What is this?

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:38 pm 
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Kivaari wrote:
Quote:
Reinforcing “bump” introduced in 1909


What is this?


Kivaari,

I mean the "bulge" around the trigger plate screw introduced in 1909. See my scetch here (post of May 21):

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=179695&start=40

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:45 pm 
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Great thread!

Here's my 2 cents. I've wondered about this square vs round spring Q for some time now. As such, I have been keeping a bit of an informal survey (when I think of it) of pre-1930 straight stock guns that I have come across (personally or on the web). Some are owned by people on this board. The results:

12GA
1930 FN A5, round recoil spring
1923 FN A5, flat recoil spring
1923 FN A5, flat recoil spring
1906 FN A5, flat recoil spring
1904 A5, flat recoil spring
1904 A5, flat recoil spring
1904 A5, flat recoil spring
1903 A5, flat recoil spring

16GA
1929 FN A5, round recoil spring
1928 A5, round recoil spring
1924 A5, flat recoil spring
1923 A5, round recoil spring
1913 FN A5 flat recoil spring
1910-12 FN A5, flat recoil spring
1910-12 FN A5, flat recoil spring
1910 FN A5, flat recoil spring
1909 FN A5, flat recoil spring

I can not verify if any of these springs are originals or replacements, but there certainly is a trend. The only hickup is that the 1923 16g had a round spring while the 1924 16g had a flat spring. Based on the above, it would seem reasonable to assume that flat springs were used up until 1923-24, when they transitioned to round springs. If anyone has data to add to the above, I'd welcome it!

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:50 am 
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Hi Decoy,

thanks much for presenting your survey! That is in deed very helpful to get an idea, when the change from square (flat) to round springs occurred. Yes, I also see the trend: must have been done around 1923 or 1924.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:56 am 
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My 1927 12ga has the original, as far as I know, round spring.

My friend's 1920 12ga had a flat spring and it was replaced with a round one in 1965.

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:18 pm 
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Hi Decoy,

for your survey:

A-5, 16 ga., SN 10,480, round pistol grip, square recoil spring.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:21 pm 
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A5guy and Sauerfan- thanks for the added examples.

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:29 am 
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Hi Decoy,

here’s a new one:

16 ga, SN 39001, proofed in 1925 (proof letter code “d”), round pistol grip, square recoil spring.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:31 am 
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Gentlemen,

Just recently I received another A-5 manual. This time, a German language manual dated May 1929.

Image

This manual often is offered as a reprint, but mine is original. In the appendix is a large fold out showing cross-sectional views of the A-5.

Image

The interesting part of that: while the upper figure I shows a square spring,

Image

the lower figure III shows already a round spring.

Image

Thought, you liked to know.

Best regards

Martin

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Last edited by sauerfan on Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vintage A5s (pre 1923?) having SQUARE recoil springs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:19 am 
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Great find and VERY interesting!



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