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 Post subject: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:48 pm 
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I have a little bit of a challenge for superposed experts here on this forum. I am no newbie to the Browning superposed/B-25 and know a fare bit about the Browning guns, but this one has me wondering and its a gun my family owns. The shotgun I am talking about has been in y family since the early/mid 70s. My dad bought it used. And I was the one shooting it growing up and in competition before I moved to the US 30 years ago. Since I am from Germany and that;s where the gun still is, it is a FN superposed, not Browning branded official US import. It is a pre-1971 gun since it still has the barrel engraving Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre before the renaming of the company in October 1971 and I believe it is post-1966 gun because I believe it is a short tang gun. It is a 12 gage standard (no or little engravings/blued receiver) , square knob with highly unusual 74" / 86 cm barrels with full/full choke, which is super unusual in my view, but would of course make it a trap gun. The serial number is 51815NT also a number that does not follow Browning protocol and I am stumped to be able to determine what it is by the serial number. It is definitely a FN superposed as the non-removable and typical superposed forearm attachment shows. Unfortunately I have currently no pictures or more info since the gun is in storage, but I will see it in November when I go back to visit my folks. Anyone able to help out in the meanwhile? Thank you!



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DT-11 Sptg Black B-Fast - DT-11 Sptg B-Fast - 692 Black B-Fast - A400 Sptg Black - A400 Multitarget - CG Invictus VII - Browning A5 Ultim. - CZ Sharptail Target - TriStar TT-15 CTA DeLuxe 32"/34" - Rem. 11-87 SP 25.5"


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Alex , it sounds like you have an A-1 trap. My suggestion is to move your post to the "Browning Shotguns" thread. There is a gentleman that is quite knowledgeable with regards to the FN Supers and I'm sure he can help you . Good Luck in your search !


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:55 am 
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Thank you captjsjr ! I have done so as you suggested!!

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DT-11 Sptg Black B-Fast - DT-11 Sptg B-Fast - 692 Black B-Fast - A400 Sptg Black - A400 Multitarget - CG Invictus VII - Browning A5 Ultim. - CZ Sharptail Target - TriStar TT-15 CTA DeLuxe 32"/34" - Rem. 11-87 SP 25.5"


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:24 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
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Welcome, Alex

Other than your assertion that it is a Superposed, what you described sounds like an FN A1 Grade Trap Superposed. I wouldn't be able to tell much more about it until I view photos.

However, here are some observations until you can get photos and confirm some other details:

  • The number 51815 would be in a sequential series for late 1966 early 1967 but would likely have an 'S6' gauge/year code.
  • Obviously 'NT' doesn't coincide with the pre-1971 barrel date, but as you may know, is among the letters used for the post-'77 year codes...….NT being '96'.
  • Upper tang: If your gun is a '66, I suspect yours is a 'Y'-tang as opposed to a 'U'-tang. Both types can be found on '66 guns. Even though I have a record for a U-tang Midas in the 517xx range, I also have records of several '66 guns with later serial numbers that are Y-tangs. As best I can determine, the transition from Y-tang to U-tang (when the inventory of remaining Y-tang frames was exhausted) appears to have occurred between #601xx and 605xx. Incidentally, both of these were 'ST' ('short' tang trigger guards). I'm not ruling-out the possibility your gun could be a U-tang since there was obviously some overlapping of tang types in the sequential numbering system during the trasition period.
  • The next period where a sequential number in the 51xxx range could have occurred is 1970. This would also coincide with the pre-71 barrel address. The next period would be 1975 which would have the new barrel address.
  • 86cm barrels (34+" length) would be quite anomalous but not out of the realm of possibilities. I have never encountered a Superposed with barrels longer than 81cm / 32". I suspect 74" in your previous message is a typo. The overall length of a B25 with 15"LOP and 32" bbls is around 125.73cm / 49.5"

I have no explanation for the 'NT' designation, nor the absence of a 'S6' year code following the serial #51815 - (nice symmetrical number - easy to remember).

I look forward to seeing photos and possibly solving the mystery in November.

By chance, is the gun stored with Krico GmbH & Co. in Nuemarkt? Very impressive operation and interesting history behind the Kriegeskorte family business.


Last edited by Anatidae on Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed S/N 51815NT
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Thank you anatidae! Good information and very helpful. I appreciate it very much. I am in the process to set up for importing this gun to the US as I had done with my Simson 35/74 and Aramberri Mach in 1996. I, unfortunately, have no pictures yet, but in early November I will be back in Germany and will take detailed pictures to update this thread. I need to verify all of this info and check tangs. Since I did not have access to the gun for a long time I can not verify the serial number given, but over the past 25 years it was recorded twice for gunsmith storage reasons and for the transfer to me on the German "Waffenbesitzkarte", a sort of title to the weapon required in Germany. I also want to verify if the barrels are 34" or only 32", but my dad swears they are 86 cm, so 34". I am sure the barrel engraving is the "old" FN d'Armes de Guerre factory name before the name change to FN Herstal in 1971 and I am pretty sure it is short tang, flat knob. Unsure if it is Y or U upper tang. The gun would certainly not be a later NT year designation gun. I first shot it in 1977 in prep form my Germany "Jagdschein" (hunters and gun owners license) classes and thereafter from 1978 on in trap/skeet and hunting use. I would believe it is a trap model with the full/full choking and long barrels but I also have to measure the buttstock to learn more. It is currently stored with a gunsmith in Northern Germany that has been a family friend of my dad for decades, so it's not with Krico.

Did FN use the same serialization scheme on "their" RoW gun sales that Browning used? The serial number is what stumps me the most.

_________________
DT-11 Sptg Black B-Fast - DT-11 Sptg B-Fast - 692 Black B-Fast - A400 Sptg Black - A400 Multitarget - CG Invictus VII - Browning A5 Ultim. - CZ Sharptail Target - TriStar TT-15 CTA DeLuxe 32"/34" - Rem. 11-87 SP 25.5"


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed S/N 51815NT
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:06 pm 
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You're welcome, Alex.

Alex D wrote:
Did FN use the same serialization scheme on "their" RoW gun sales that Browning used? The serial number is what stumps me the most.


It is my understanding that frames for both companies were numbered sequentially with no distinction whether they would become Browning or FN-marketed Superposed.

I agree, the 'NT' designation is not a standard suffix to either brand's numbering/dating scheme with the 'weapons of war' barrel address.

Can you remember if the rib a standard 8mm ventilated, or is it a 15mm 'Broadway' rib? This would not give any clue to Superposed model ID - I'm just curious.


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed S/N 51815NT
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Anatidae wrote:
You're welcome, Alex.

Alex D wrote:
Did FN use the same serialization scheme on "their" RoW gun sales that Browning used? The serial number is what stumps me the most.


It is my understanding that frames for both companies were numbered sequentially with no distinction whether they would become Browning or FN-marketed Superposed.

I agree, the 'NT' designation is not a standard suffix to either brand's numbering/dating scheme with the 'weapons of war' barrel address.

Can you remember if the rib a standard 8mm ventilated, or is it a 15mm 'Broadway' rib? This would not give any clue to Superposed model ID - I'm just curious.


We think alike! I was thinking the same today after looking at serial numbers in my superposed book. I will call my dad tomorrow and ask if he remembers. It could be a broadway, but I am not sure anymore ... I'll for sure keep you updated!!

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DT-11 Sptg Black B-Fast - DT-11 Sptg B-Fast - 692 Black B-Fast - A400 Sptg Black - A400 Multitarget - CG Invictus VII - Browning A5 Ultim. - CZ Sharptail Target - TriStar TT-15 CTA DeLuxe 32"/34" - Rem. 11-87 SP 25.5"


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:41 pm 
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One more comment regarding chokes. I agree that F/F chokings on a 76cm or 81cm bbls (& especially Broadway ribs) would be a trap gun. F/F chokes are also used on ‘field’ style guns (with bbls typically shorter than 76cm) such as 67cm, 70cm, and 71cm. Some of the Brits are proponents of tight chokes with a well-placed shot centered on the target/game. They are also well-schooled in sound wingshooting technique and score consistently at all distances. I also prefer this approach on clay birds - live by tight chokes-die by tight chokes. I prefer that to ‘spray and pray’ which may produce a better score in clays games (on certain days) but generally promotes sloppy gun technique and translates to crippling in field situations.


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:08 am 
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Anatidae wrote:
One more comment regarding chokes. I agree that F/F chokings on a 76cm or 81cm bbls (& especially Broadway ribs) would be a trap gun. F/F chokes are also used on ‘field’ style guns (with bbls typically shorter than 76cm) such as 67cm, 70cm, and 71cm. Some of the Brits are proponents of tight chokes with a well-placed shot centered on the target/game. They are also well-schooled in sound wingshooting technique and score consistently at all distances. I also prefer this approach on clay birds - live by tight chokes-die by tight chokes. I prefer that to ‘spray and pray’ which may produce a better score in clays games (on certain days) but generally promotes sloppy gun technique and translates to crippling in field situations.


For that I have a Merkel 12/70 with double super tight full choke barrels. I once took a shot at a couple of very high flying ducks while my dad made a comment next to saying never in his lifetime. The duck I aimed at folded and dropped. They were flying around 75 m high. :)

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DT-11 Sptg Black B-Fast - DT-11 Sptg B-Fast - 692 Black B-Fast - A400 Sptg Black - A400 Multitarget - CG Invictus VII - Browning A5 Ultim. - CZ Sharptail Target - TriStar TT-15 CTA DeLuxe 32"/34" - Rem. 11-87 SP 25.5"


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:07 am 
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The mystery is solved.

I am back in Germany with my parents this weekend so finally my dad and I went to the gunsmith to take a look at the "mystery" FN B-25 I used to shoot the late 70s but had not seen in over 30 years.

First, the gun was disassembled and in the shop as the gunsmith had determined one of the ejector hammers was broken and removed the forearm and hammer piece. We commissioned the repair and I also asked them to re-blue the barrels as they are showing a lot of wear from the years.

The first mystery was the strange serial number. Turns out this was not the correct serial number for this B-25, but for an EU Miroku Browning my dad also owns. The right serial is 16317S3, which makes this a 1963 gun from the first series with the new serialization number scheme also indicating gauge and year in addition to the s/n. The next give away was the tangs and rib. It is a Y tang/long tang, square knob, FN B-25 A1 Broadway trap with 81 cm/32" barrels in F/F choke.

I will now work on the import permits and when the gun gets to the US find someone to restore the stocks that show a lot of wear. She's not a beauty. My dad had the buttstock altered when he bought the gun in the early 70s so it will never be a collectors item, but it is a family heirloom to me and so it will get the TLC it deserves!

Pictures: https://imgur.com/a/tcNzlXE

_________________
DT-11 Sptg Black B-Fast - DT-11 Sptg B-Fast - 692 Black B-Fast - A400 Sptg Black - A400 Multitarget - CG Invictus VII - Browning A5 Ultim. - CZ Sharptail Target - TriStar TT-15 CTA DeLuxe 32"/34" - Rem. 11-87 SP 25.5"


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:35 am 
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Alex , I'm glad that is sorted out and the gun will be here with you. Don't be a stranger , please keep us informed as the work proceeds on your heirloom. {hs# o


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
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Thanks for the update, Alex.

If you use Griffin&Howe as your import agent, you can also get a quote from their gunsmithing department on work you are contemplating, while it is there.

They just imported one for me (also from Germany) and put their import stamp on it. They are also currently assessing stock refinishing job (and pricing) on a 1954 FN B-25 for me.

Good luck


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Another anomaly ... the serial number would indicate it to be a 1964 gun per the superposed book, while the SN appendix indicates a 1963 gun. Weird!

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DT-11 Sptg Black B-Fast - DT-11 Sptg B-Fast - 692 Black B-Fast - A400 Sptg Black - A400 Multitarget - CG Invictus VII - Browning A5 Ultim. - CZ Sharptail Target - TriStar TT-15 CTA DeLuxe 32"/34" - Rem. 11-87 SP 25.5"


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery F/N Superposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Keep in mind, FN's fiscal year ended June 30.




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