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 Post subject: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:47 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:46 am
Posts: 59
This trade has been posed to me and I’m curious to get some good advice:
Trade my Beretta EELL 20/28ga combo 28” bbls for a 1957 20ga with 28” bbls Browning Fighting Cocks. The Browning has a recoil pad and my plan would be to send it to Arts for full restoration. To be clear the trade would only be for the shotguns.

Unfortunately I can’t mount the Browning which is why I need some advice.

Thank you all in advance.

Sam




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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:26 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:17 am
Posts: 587
Sammieiii wrote:
This trade has been posed to me and I’m curious to get some good advice:
Trade my Beretta EELL 20/28ga combo 28” bbls for a 1957 20ga with 28” bbls Browning Fighting Cocks. The Browning has a recoil pad and my plan would be to send it to Arts for full restoration. To be clear the trade would only be for the shotguns.

Unfortunately I can’t mount the Browning which is why I need some advice.

Thank you all in advance.

Sam

You're gonna trade away all that versatility for a one-trick pony that needs to be restored? Not a chance would I do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:59 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 pm
Posts: 1157
Location: DFW, TEXAS
Sammieiii wrote:
Unfortunately I can’t mount the Browning which is why I need some advice.


Do you mean the gun does not fit you or you don't have access to the gun to see if it fits you?

What will you use these guns for? Hunting only? Clays only, or both? Safe Queen?
You'll be trading 4 barrels for 2...
Does the Beretta have screw in chokes? That is a "force multiplier" as we say in the military. The Superposed will only have fixed chokes. What chokes does it have, and do they meet your needs?

That being said, Schwing says the 1950s were the high-point of Superposed craftsmanship, and 20 gauges are highly prized and more valuable (price-wise) than 12s. Also, the Fighting Cocks, or Grade 3, was a limited run design, from 1950 to 1959,being replaced by the Pointer Grade in late 1960. Schwing states on pg 135 that "This is a highly sought after Superposed grade with collectors." By 1959, A Fighting Cocks sold for $450. Unfortunately for your trade, the butt pad will reduce value in this gun somewhat.

Is the Grade 3 signed, double signed, and by whom? Some engravers signature counts more than others, at least with collectors.

I know the EELL is the top of the line on the 687, but I don't know more than what I can readily find on the Web.

Hope this helps.

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...911 calls the men that draw the white chalk lines...1911 determines who they draw the lines around...


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:02 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:01 pm
Posts: 6726
Have you priced a full restoration at Arts? Will the restoration includes a new stock to get rid of the pad? Is the EEL a gun that you shoot and use or just trade stock? Will you use the Superposed?
I do not know values. Just curious. I think I would avoid a big commitment to Arts if I had to buy the gun to do it on. Maybe on an inherited gun or something. I am not sure how collectors value a restored gun.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:51 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:03 pm
Posts: 179
The only reason I would trade a fine Beretta EELL combo for this Browning would be if I was a collector of Superposes and I needed this relatively scarce gun for my collection.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:06 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:46 pm
Posts: 9169
Location: Richmond, VA
No way, Jose!!!!!!!!!!

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My pen name is Irish, pronounced SHAY-mus oh-KOSH-eh-deh.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:40 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:46 am
Posts: 59
Thank you all for the helpful input! I owe several of you answers which I will post shortly but wanted to pose another scenario I’ve been giving some though to.

I don’t have access to see how the Fighting Cocks will fit bit the 20ga/28”bbls is the gun I shoot for dove and do a lot of it in Texas. Since it has the pad, I was able to get them to $7,000 for the Fighting C and they will buy a more neutral pad on it.

To answer some of your questions, I plan on shooting the Fighting C a lot. Based on the pics I’ve seen and conversations I’ve had with the owner it’s 100% original minus the cut stock/pad, which may not be a terrible thing to have in the field. It’s in pretty dang good condition with the only dings being in the stock from hitting the belt, but hardly noticeable and have to really look for it.

Art would charge about $3,000 for new wood, receiver and bluing but kinda thinking I could use the $3k and get a Superposed Lightning :)

So my new question after thinking about this all day:

Is $7,000 a good price to pay for a very nice 1959 20ga/28” bbls Fighting Cocks Superposed that would be used as a field gun?

I’ve got a KAC and some other guns I never shoot and may sell those to minimize the wallet damage and hang on to the EELL Combo.

Thank you all again for your help!!

Sam


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:43 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:46 am
Posts: 59
Bill M. wrote:
Have you priced a full restoration at Arts? Will the restoration includes a new stock to get rid of the pad? Is the EEL a gun that you shoot and use or just trade stock? Will you use the Superposed?
I do not know values. Just curious. I think I would avoid a big commitment to Arts if I had to buy the gun to do it on. Maybe on an inherited gun or something. I am not sure how collectors value a restored gun.


It would be ~$3k for new wood, bluing and engraving the receiver however I don’t think it’s necessary to do that after receiving close up pics of the Fighting C.

Very good thought/point on restoring an inherited Superposed and not a field gun that will get banged up.

What are your thoughts on 7k for the Fighting and that includes a smaller recoil pad molded to the cut stock?


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:47 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:46 am
Posts: 59
NoDak Scotty wrote:
Sammieiii wrote:
Unfortunately I can’t mount the Browning which is why I need some advice.


Do you mean the gun does not fit you or you don't have access to the gun to see if it fits you?

What will you use these guns for? Hunting only? Clays only, or both? Safe Queen?
You'll be trading 4 barrels for 2...
Does the Beretta have screw in chokes? That is a "force multiplier" as we say in the military. The Superposed will only have fixed chokes. What chokes does it have, and do they meet your needs?

That being said, Schwing says the 1950s were the high-point of Superposed craftsmanship, and 20 gauges are highly prized and more valuable (price-wise) than 12s. Also, the Fighting Cocks, or Grade 3, was a limited run design, from 1950 to 1959,being replaced by the Pointer Grade in late 1960. Schwing states on pg 135 that "This is a highly sought after Superposed grade with collectors." By 1959, A Fighting Cocks sold for $450. Unfortunately for your trade, the butt pad will reduce value in this gun somewhat.

Is the Grade 3 signed, double signed, and by whom? Some engravers signature counts more than others, at least with collectors.

I know the EELL is the top of the line on the 687, but I don't know more than what I can readily find on the Web.

Hope this helps.


Incredibly helpful and thank you for taking the time to give such an elaborate and helpful answer!

I will use the Guns for hunting dove and shooting clays at the ranch - not competition. The Beretta does hav escrow in chokes and the Fighting C has IC/Mod so great for birds.

Any idea on what the butt pad will reduce it by or is it dependent on someone purchasing it? Not too concerned as this would be a hard gun to part with down the road. What are your thoughts on $7k for it?

It’s signed on one side by Funken.

Again, thank you very much for the elaborate answer.

Sam


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:50 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:46 am
Posts: 59
Sammieiii wrote:
NoDak Scotty wrote:
Sammieiii wrote:
Unfortunately I can’t mount the Browning which is why I need some advice.


Do you mean the gun does not fit you or you don't have access to the gun to see if it fits you?

What will you use these guns for? Hunting only? Clays only, or both? Safe Queen?
You'll be trading 4 barrels for 2...
Does the Beretta have screw in chokes? That is a "force multiplier" as we say in the military. The Superposed will only have fixed chokes. What chokes does it have, and do they meet your needs?

That being said, Schwing says the 1950s were the high-point of Superposed craftsmanship, and 20 gauges are highly prized and more valuable (price-wise) than 12s. Also, the Fighting Cocks, or Grade 3, was a limited run design, from 1950 to 1959,being replaced by the Pointer Grade in late 1960. Schwing states on pg 135 that "This is a highly sought after Superposed grade with collectors." By 1959, A Fighting Cocks sold for $450. Unfortunately for your trade, the butt pad will reduce value in this gun somewhat.

Is the Grade 3 signed, double signed, and by whom? Some engravers signature counts more than others, at least with collectors.

I know the EELL is the top of the line on the 687, but I don't know more than what I can readily find on the Web.

Hope this helps.


Incredibly helpful and thank you for taking the time to give such an elaborate and helpful answer!

I will use the Guns for hunting dove and shooting clays at the ranch - not competition. The Beretta does hav escrow in chokes and the Fighting C has IC/Mod so great for birds.

Any idea on what the butt pad will reduce it by or is it dependent on someone purchasing it? Not too concerned as this would be a hard gun to part with down the road. What are your thoughts on $7k for it?

It’s signed on one side by Funken.

Again, thank you very much for the elaborate answer.

Sam


One last note - the wood on it is very nice and original wood from 1959 minus the cut stock/pad.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:45 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 pm
Posts: 1157
Location: DFW, TEXAS
OK, a Funken signed 20 Gauge Fighting Cocks...that is a worthwhile investment in my opinion. However, maybe not $7k worthwhile... For reference, I paid $5500 for a Funken signed Grade IV, but it had been restocked and I then restocked it back to 1953 factory specs with Art's.
$7k is basically Diana (Gr V) money. So, I believe a cut stock Gr 3 with some nicks and scrapes most likely should be under $7k. Value is hard to pinpoint, but if the stock were uncut with original buttplate, then maybe $5-6K is doable. Personally, I believe $7K is too much.

There's a few folks with better high-grade value experience than me and they might want to chime in.

Clearly I will need to visit this Texas ranch someday with my Gr IV to help reduce the dove problem! :)

_________________
...911 calls the men that draw the white chalk lines...1911 determines who they draw the lines around...


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:57 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:46 am
Posts: 59
NoDak Scotty wrote:
OK, a Funken signed 20 Gauge Fighting Cocks...that is a worthwhile investment in my opinion. However, maybe not $7k worthwhile... For reference, I paid $5500 for a Funken signed Grade IV, but it had been restocked and I then restocked it back to 1953 factory specs with Art's.
$7k is basically Diana (Gr V) money. So, I believe a cut stock Gr 3 with some nicks and scrapes most likely should be under $7k. Value is hard to pinpoint, but if the stock were uncut with original buttplate, then maybe $5-6K is doable. Personally, I believe $7K is too much.

There's a few folks with better high-grade value experience than me and they might want to chime in.

Clearly I will need to visit this Texas ranch someday with my Gr IV to help reduce the dove problem! :)


One thing I misspoke on and just confirmed is that it is double signed.

You're reference is very helpful. Is your 20ga a 26" or 28" bbls? Everything I come across $5,000 or less is a 12ga - are there any secret sites besides GI and GB - those all seem to be overpriced? Or is it luck of the draw when you walk into a store?

Our place is in Hebronville - come on down anytime - plenty of dove & quail for everyone!


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:59 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:46 am
Posts: 59
NoDak Scotty wrote:
OK, a Funken signed 20 Gauge Fighting Cocks...that is a worthwhile investment in my opinion. However, maybe not $7k worthwhile... For reference, I paid $5500 for a Funken signed Grade IV, but it had been restocked and I then restocked it back to 1953 factory specs with Art's.
$7k is basically Diana (Gr V) money. So, I believe a cut stock Gr 3 with some nicks and scrapes most likely should be under $7k. Value is hard to pinpoint, but if the stock were uncut with original buttplate, then maybe $5-6K is doable. Personally, I believe $7K is too much.

There's a few folks with better high-grade value experience than me and they might want to chime in.

Clearly I will need to visit this Texas ranch someday with my Gr IV to help reduce the dove problem! :)


Did Art restore it with new wood but same specs or was he able to get you older wood from a Fighting Cocks? If he did the new wood, would that "devalue" the gun? I'm not really concerned either way as I plan on keeping this one until it stops shooting then I'll have it restored.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:42 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 pm
Posts: 1157
Location: DFW, TEXAS
Oh, I did forget your trade was a 20 gauge...that does alter my reference prices since mine was a 12 gauge. (I can't afford 20s!) In fact, I should just stick to 12s since that's about all I that I have experience with. My apologies.

_________________
...911 calls the men that draw the white chalk lines...1911 determines who they draw the lines around...


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:26 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 4007
Location: Western Tampa, FL
Those Funken double signed guns are not found every day. As you said, it is also in a very usable configuration. Everyone has to make their own mind up on these types of trades but as for me; I would trade the Beretta for it. However, I only am basing that on which one I would rather own and use not their potential market value. Good luck!


Last edited by oyeme on Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:55 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:30 am
Posts: 554
Location: Indiana
Nope!


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:16 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 918
Sammieiii post #1 wrote:
This trade has been posed to me and I’m curious to get some good advice:
Trade my Beretta EELL 20/28ga combo 28” bbls for a 1957 20ga with 28” bbls Browning Fighting Cocks.
There seems to be several unanswered questions. I have to wonder Who would propose such a trade.........and Who could offer reliable advice with such few details?
Quote:
The Browning has a recoil pad and my plan would be to send it to Arts for full restoration.
Just because of a pad? I assume you hadn't seen photos at this point, since you determined (or stated in a later comment), that the gun did not need restoration after-all. Did the other guy propose a trade without seeing your Beretta, or photos?
Quote:
To be clear the trade would only be for the shotguns.
That was clear - but someone offering a 20ga Gr III that doesn't need restoration seems very unusual - and makes me skeptical.
Quote:
Unfortunately I can’t mount the Browning which is why I need some advice.
At this point in the charade, I would've advised against the trade without confirming whether the Gr III fit you - and on an assumption that it would be used for shooting purposes. And IF, in fact, the Beretta EELL combo was a rare gift from your wife (as indicated in another thread), I'd ask her how she feels about this trade. :mrgreen:

Sammieiii post #2 wrote:
Since it has the pad, I was able to get them to $7,000 for the Fighting C...….
So, what was the asking price before mention of the pad?
Quote:
and they will buy a more neutral pad on it.
I can really appreciate the frustration and patience of a French-speaking person, trying to interpret my rough translation from English to French. Are you translating from another language? If so, it is very close but I'm having trouble with phrases like, "they will buy a more neutral pad on it." Can you clarify this statement? And out of curiosity, what is your first language? – So far, I've ruled-out 'Texan'. :lol:
Quote:
Based on the pics I’ve seen and conversations I’ve had with the owner it’s 100% original minus the cut stock/pad, which may not be a terrible thing to have in the field. It’s in pretty dang good condition with the only dings being in the stock from hitting the belt, but hardly noticeable and have to really look for it.
I agree, the pad could be a more acceptable on a 'shooter-quality' field gun. But my first question (to the seller) would be, "how Much has the stock been cut?" I've seen many examples of otherwise desirable guns that have very short L.O.P.'s. So, did you confirm the L.O.P.? Personally, I would not trust anyone saying it's 100% original (except for the pad). It is ultimately the buyer's responsibility to verify the details, and unless you know enough about the original details yourself, it is almost impossible to assess whether the seller knows what he's talking about, or not.
Quote:
Art would charge about $3,000 for new wood, receiver and bluing but kinda thinking I could use the $3k and get a Superposed Lightning :)
I'd be very surprised if $3k would cover the wood, fitting, checkering, and wood finish, only. Anything less could be an injustice to the gun. So, if $3k covers total restoration including new wood, I would look elsewhere.
Quote:
So my new question after thinking about this all day: Is $7,000 a good price to pay for a very nice 1959 20ga/28” bbls Fighting Cocks Superposed that would be used as a field gun?
If you've seen photos and have to rely on answers from people you don't know (including the seller), then you should probably walk away or find a qualified firearms appraiser. No one here can answer that question with any reliable degree of certainty, based on the information given thus far, and without benefit of high-quality photos.

Sammieiii post #3 wrote:
It would be ~$3k for new wood, bluing and engraving the receiver however I don’t think it’s necessary to do that after receiving close up pics of the Fighting C.
I can tell you talked to Brad - and not Art. $3k would only be enough to cover the wood re-stock. Great decision not to have a full restoration! Another (perhaps collector grade) gun saved from possible ruin - there are too many 're-do's out there as it is. It's hard to find one that hasn't been 'got-at'. BTW, the more apt phrase relating to metal restoration would be "re-graying the receiver" - not 'engraving the receiver'. Lack of familiarity with the terms or the process is an opportunity for the less-scrupulous to charge you $4.5k for turning a $10k collectable into a $5k tragedy.
Quote:
What are your thoughts on 7k for the Fighting and that includes a smaller recoil pad molded to the cut stock?
How much was the stock 'cut'? Please clarify this statement, or process...…"a smaller recoil pad molded to the cut stock". Does molded mean ‘fitted'? Value is influenced by so many details including current L.O.P with the original pad, and type of pad. There's nothing that suggests a 'restoration' more clearly than a new pad on an old gun.

Sammieiii post 4 wrote:
Any idea on what the butt pad will reduce it by or is it dependent on someone purchasing it?
Do you mean, “or is it dependent on the person purchasing it? If that's what you're asking, then you've answered your own question with........
Quote:
Not too concerned as this would be a hard gun to part with down the road.
No one else is in contention for this Gr III, right?

But then you ask......
Quote:
What are your thoughts on $7k for it?
'Sounds too good to be true, honestly. Decide whether you're really concerned about re-sale potential, or not.
Quote:
One last note - the wood on it is very nice and original wood from 1959 minus the cut stock/pad.
Did the seller tell you this? If so, how did you establish his credibility?
Quote:
I just confirmed that it is double signed.
Well, chances are, it's not a fake, then. And chances are (since it is a 1959 and not signed by one of his student engravers), then Funken may have actually engraved this example himself – which could increase the value depending on the authenticity of the engraving and level of detail in the game scenes. Is the dog on the bottom a joyful dog you would want to pet or hunt with – or is it a mall-nourished mutt looking for a hand-out? Nobody wants to pet an ugly dog. I’ve seen a couple of 1960 Gr III’s that replace that scene with a partridge scene.
Quote:
Did Art restore it with new wood but same specs or was he able to get you older wood from a Fighting Cocks? If he did the new wood, would that "devalue" the gun? I'm not really concerned either way as I plan on keeping this one until it stops shooting then I'll have it restored.
Then valuation of a 're-stock' becomes irrelevant, though I can appreciate wanting to get the most 'reasonable' value you can for an item. This dilemma is what makes gun buying so exciting.
Quote:
If he (Art) did the new wood, would that "devalue" the gun?
The wording of this question is subject to interpretation but I would answer two different interpretations with, “Yes”.

You seem very enthusiastic about a variety of fine guns. It does not surprise me you recognize the Gr III's potential as being special. You are also very gracious in acknowledging people's time and responses - which is rare on these forums but is very much appreciated when it happens. I intended no malice with my responses – I struggle with communication, at times. I wish you well and good luck with your gun dealings. Happy Hunting!


Last edited by Anatidae on Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:46 am, edited 14 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:24 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:46 am
Posts: 8331
Location: Colorado Springs, Co
NoDak Scotty wrote:
Sammieiii wrote:
Unfortunately I can’t mount the Browning which is why I need some advice.


Do you mean the gun does not fit you or you don't have access to the gun to see if it fits you?

What will you use these guns for? Hunting only? Clays only, or both? Safe Queen?
You'll be trading 4 barrels for 2...
Does the Beretta have screw in chokes? That is a "force multiplier" as we say in the military. The Superposed will only have fixed chokes. What chokes does it have, and do they meet your needs?

That being said, Schwing says the 1950s were the high-point of Superposed craftsmanship, and 20 gauges are highly prized and more valuable (price-wise) than 12s. Also, the Fighting Cocks, or Grade 3, was a limited run design, from 1950 to 1959,being replaced by the Pointer Grade in late 1960. Schwing states on pg 135 that "This is a highly sought after Superposed grade with collectors." By 1959, A Fighting Cocks sold for $450. Unfortunately for your trade, the butt pad will reduce value in this gun somewhat.

Is the Grade 3 signed, double signed, and by whom? Some engravers signature counts more than others, at least with collectors.

I know the EELL is the top of the line on the 687, but I don't know more than what I can readily find on the Web


The Beretta 687 Jubilee is the top production model and then the SOs!
No, I would not trade for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you trade....
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:16 am 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:22 am
Posts: 20
If you're more interested in a shooter as opposed to a collector and if you shoot the Beretta well I wouldn't make the trade unless there's something about the Browning that you can't live without. I learned this lesson in about 1980 and it only cost me a couple of hundred and a month of my life to learn NOT to trade a gun you can shoot well.




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