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 Post subject: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:57 am 
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Location: Alabama
Some will cringe when they read this, but here it goes.
I have always admired the Superposed, but I've never even held one in my hands.
I have tried out Helice shooting and have seen some fine Superposed shotguns brought to the shoots.
I made the comment to a fellow shooter that I wouldn't mind having one and he said he knew a guy that had two for sale.

Called and talked to the guy and he has a Pigeon Grade with 30" barrels, and upgraded wood.
I like 30" barrels, so I'm already interested.

Ok, now for the cringe part, it's choked F/F, and I have no need for a F/F choked gun.
I won't be buying it for a safe queen and will shoot the gun.

I don't plan on selling guns when I buy them, but I do sell guns sometimes.
I would either want to have the chokes opened up or have screw in chokes installed.

How much would either hurt the value of the gun ?
Thanks



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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:25 am 
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Howdy joe:

As you know, anytime you alter a collector gun from factory specs, it lessens its value. Now the question becomes a matter of degree or how much. IMHO, installing screw-in chokes (even if done by Briley) would devalue the Super more than if you simply opened up the chokes. I wouldn't do it. Opening up the chokes is a common thing on Supers, especially Grade I guns. Of course, the Pigeon is a high grade, so value may be a little more affected.

Notwithstanding the above, it sounds like you are going to shoot this Pigeon (that's what they're made for), and that you're going to keep it and that you're not buying it for investment. Given that scenario, if it were mine, I would have a reputable gunsmith (like Art's or Briley) do the work for provenance's sake. Then I would shoot it and enjoy it.

You didn't mention what chokes you are considering. But I will opine that if you open the chokes to Skeet/Skeet, it will hurt the value more than if you opened them up to a desired field configuration like IC/M. S/S Supers historically bring less $$$ than the field choked guns.

I'm not qualified to give you an exact amount that opening up the chokes would devalue the gun, but I can't imagine it would be more than a couple hundred dollars if you choose field chokes. On the other hand, I wouldn't even buy a high grade Superposed that had screw-in chokes installed.

Hope this helps.

CFB

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:22 pm
Posts: 360
Location: Alabama
crazyforbrownings wrote:
Howdy joe:

As you know, anytime you alter a collector gun from factory specs, it lessens its value. Now the question becomes a matter of degree or how much. IMHO, installing screw-in chokes (even if done by Briley) would devalue the Super more than if you simply opened up the chokes. I wouldn't do it. Opening up the chokes is a common thing on Supers, especially Grade I guns. Of course, the Pigeon is a high grade, so value may be a little more affected.

Notwithstanding the above, it sounds like you are going to shoot this Pigeon (that's what they're made for), and that you're going to keep it and that you're not buying it for investment. Given that scenario, if it were mine, I would have a reputable gunsmith (like Art's or Briley) do the work for provenance's sake. Then I would shoot it and enjoy it.

You didn't mention what chokes you are considering. But I will opine that if you open the chokes to Skeet/Skeet, it will hurt the value more than if you opened them up to a desired field configuration like IC/M. S/S Supers historically bring less $$$ than the field choked guns.

I'm not qualified to give you an exact amount that opening up the chokes would devalue the gun, but I can't imagine it would be more than a couple hundred dollars if you choose field chokes. On the other hand, I wouldn't even buy a high grade Superposed that had screw-in chokes installed.

Hope this helps.

CFB

Yes it helps.
I was hoping you would chime in.
Probably the only thing I would use the gun for is Helice, and I would like to try live Pigeons one day.
I like the idea of having the chokes opened up to M/IM or IM/F.
Your right, I won't be buying the gun as an investment, it will be a shooter.

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 4912
Location: WA/AK
Opening the chokes on a Superposed and "adjusting" the choke markings accordingly is almost a no brainer.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:23 pm 
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I agree with opening the chokes and remarking. But...the 30" barrels with open chokes could be a large loss in value even if marked appropriately. I think the long barrels all come from the factory tight. I have seen Briley chokes in Superposed guns but it is not an easy installation and not a good one in my mind. I know on my 28" field grade lightning the barrels are so close together at the muzzle the barrels have little flats on them and are very thin where they come together. My gunsmith just said not to do it even if Briley would try it. Briley flat declined when I called them with the OD of the barrels. They did not even want to see the gun for an evaluation.

Shooting the gun a lot is also likely to lower the collector value also so maybe opening the chokes to what you need and make up for the lost value in re-selling it by shooting it a lot. I expect only you can decide the value of shooting the gun to you. I would expect to take a good hit in resale if the gun is in collector condition now. If not, then you will not loose a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:47 pm 
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The OP already stated that the gun has "upgraded wood" so it very likely has no collector value to hurt.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
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I agree with researcher . Without the original wood , it’s just a pretty Superposed. The collector value is drastically diminished I’ve had Briley install thin walls in two grade ones for my older boys.( I wanted the guns to be versatile so they could use them for numerous sports ) after inspection Briley determined they were both good candidates. I have also had a 20 ga. Super opened up for my wife . That was done by Mike Orlen .
I would choose the constriction that would be most useful to you and do it ! Much prefer to see that gun out there working at its intended job.
One more thought , I have a friend that says “ live or die by tight chokes” I have adopted the mantra and nothing makes me laugh harder than soot balls with IM / F on the skeet field.
Good luck to ya’. Let us know what you come up with.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:39 am 
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Question that was posed to me once -

"Are you buying the gun for yourself to use, or are you buying it for the next guy?"

That thought should clarify whether you alter the chokes to something useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:49 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 3633
Location: Western Tampa, FL
I am going to buck the trend to automatically open the barrels up. My pragmatic 2 cents worth that has nothing to do with retained value is that I would shoot it "As Is". Helice and also Live Pigeon shooters I have talked to, seldom shoot anything more open than IM. Yardages are often somewhat farther than standard ATA trap and I suspect even Olympic Trap.

You may find that with some appropriate load manipulation, you can easily achieve that slightly more open choke combination in the bottom barrel. Those same shooters all said that they used Full choke for the second shot. Sounds like a great gun to me, and you may like how it performs for you, "As Is".

Some more experienced Helice shooters herein maybe will weigh in. Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:33 am 
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I do not know what "upgraded" wood actually means. If it has been restocked that is one thing. If it just has a high grade stock from the factory that is another. I just took the comment to mean it has figure in the stock. I would sure pattern it before I did anything. And try some spreader loads.

The OP question is how much does messing with it hurt value? I can not really answer that question but feel that it will have a significant hit on value if you change the choke much. Probably could get away with a IM or a M in one barrel.

It sounds like a nice gun.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:12 am 
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Joe says:

Quote:
My wife lets me buy all the guns I can hide.


True dat! :D :lol:

Good one, Joe! {hs#

CFB

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
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Interesting points from all. Oyeme hits a home run, again.

Wood: Maybe the OP could clarify what 'upgraded' means on this particular example and maybe what year the gun was manufactured.

My approach is - there are two basics conditions......'original' and 'non-original'. If the gun was ordered with 'upgrade' wood (i.e., something higher than the grade that was typically installed on a Pigeon Grade from a particular period of production), there should be an invoice stipulating such. If there's no such documentation, then it does little good to make the claim nor assume legitimacy thereof (IMO).

In most cases, when a gun has 'upgraded' wood (non-factory replacement), there is usually a a good reason it was replaced - the most common being that the original wood was salt-affected (roughly 1966 through 1970-ish). Prices normally reflect such suspicion or realism. Otherwise, the cost for 'upgraded' wood (in this sense) on a Pigeon Grade would exceed the value of the gun (in original condition) and makes little financial sense.

Chokes: I am basically a trap shooter. I have shot helice but not enough to be respectable or offer sound advice. I shot 18x30 1st time out with a 1953 Gr V 30" Superposed bored IM/M using semi-mounted gun wiht 1180fps 1oz 7-1/2's. Those are the right chokes for my experience level and shooting style - I imagine everybody's varies, somewhat.

Relative to 'factory' choke combinations in 30" Superposed guns - I have run across several with factory F/IC chokes as-confirmed by letter. Of course a letter is only as good as the authenticity of the supporting documentation and the integrity of person signing it. Perhaps 'captjsjr' will add some details about his gun with such chokes.

Value: As depressed as the Superposed market appears (especially for Gr I's and Pigeons), if there have been any modifications to a used gun (that is anything less than otherwise collector condition), re-sale potential is already diminished and even more limited. Buy it 'right', suit your own needs, enjoy it. Otherwise, I have a couple of other Y-tang high-grade Superposed 30" Trap models for sale that would be suitable for helice.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:22 pm
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Location: Alabama
First, thanks to everyone that has commented.
I have learned a lot already in this thread, the knowledge on this site is second to none.
Second, I don't know much at all about Superposed guns (except I like them) I could use some coaching on what to look for when I inspect the gun.
I don't know what terms like Y-tang, long tang, or short tang are referring to ?

I think he told me the gun was made in 64.
I took it that upgraded wood meant ordered from the factory, but I will have to ask.

If I like the gun and think it's purty, it doesn't matter to me if it is original.
What I can't find is prices to compare ? They are all over the place ?

If I buy the gun I will definitely shoot the gun as is first.

I have shot 5 rounds of Helice, and have been using M/IM and think they are the right chokes so far.
Our group does something a little different, we start on the 27 yard line, if you run 5 targets you "slide" or back up a yard for the next round or "crank".
You remain there unless you run another 5, if you run another 5 you back up another yard, and so on.
I have only had to slide once in any round, but could see if you had to slide more than twice you would be better off with more choke than M/IM.

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:49 pm 
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Joe , if that is indeed a factory wood upgrade you are looking at something considerably more special. If is indeed a ‘64 , that puts you back in the good years . ( I personally stay away from anything post ‘65.)
Any information you can gather from the owner or Browning , ie. ser # , lop , buttplate aor pad , condition , #of beads , width of rib , etc. will go along way towards identification and value.
With regards to one of the guns with Browning archives confirmed F/IC choked Supers that Anatidae mentioned is a 1954 grade III 30” .I bought this gun from him several years ago. Interestingly this gun was owned by a member of the Meade paper family who was apparently a participant in live pigeon as there is an emblem on the stock from the 1961 Barcelona shoot.
I have used ( and continue to use )this gun for skeet , trap , Sportingclays and fitasc with good success.
It may behoove you to gather as much information as possible and post it on here and see what the brain trust here can tell you. If you do decide to buy it ,I would certainly shoot it , give the original chokes a chance. By the same token if you are buying the gun to use it then ask yourself just how important ‘resale’ is to you. Please , keep us in the loop !


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:51 am 
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You might want to consider that you can probably buy a Perazzi with choke tubes for less than you are going to end up with in this gun. So how much of this purchase will be "use" and how much of it is "Browning worship"?


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:52 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:22 pm
Posts: 360
Location: Alabama
Bill M. wrote:
You might want to consider that you can probably buy a Perazzi with choke tubes for less than you are going to end up with in this gun. So how much of this purchase will be "use" and how much of it is "Browning worship"?

Haha, good question right there ! Probably 50/50 ?
I am interested in the gun because I like Pigeon Grade Superposed, I would use it because I have it.

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
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Bill M. wrote:
You might want to consider that you can probably buy a Perazzi with choke tubes for less than you are going to end up with in this gun. So how much of this purchase will be "use" and how much of it is "Browning worship"?



That’s a good point , ........if you want a Perazzi


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:05 pm 
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jusanothajoe wrote:
Bill M. wrote:
You might want to consider that you can probably buy a Perazzi with choke tubes for less than you are going to end up with in this gun. So how much of this purchase will be "use" and how much of it is "Browning worship"?

Haha, good question right there ! Probably 50/50 ?
I am interested in the gun because I like Pigeon Grade Superposed, I would use it because I have it.

Some buy cool new expensive exotic cars while some others restore cool old classic cars.
Of all the shotguns I've owned it was my old Superposed that got the most comments.
People would ask "What is that?" And "I've never seen one before."
A Pigeon Grade Superposed is like that very cool old classic car worth restoring.

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:54 am 
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Location: Alabama
Seller will bring it to a shoot in a couple of weeks, I will keep everyone updated.

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Superposed Question
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:02 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 3633
Location: Western Tampa, FL
jusanothajoe wrote:
First, thanks to everyone that has commented.
I have learned a lot already in this thread, the knowledge on this site is second to none.
Second, I don't know much at all about Superposed guns (except I like them) I could use some coaching on what to look for when I inspect the gun.
I don't know what terms like Y-tang, long tang, or short tang are referring to ?

I think he told me the gun was made in 64.
I took it that upgraded wood meant ordered from the factory, but I will have to ask.

If I like the gun and think it's purty, it doesn't matter to me if it is original.
What I can't find is prices to compare ? They are all over the place ?

If I buy the gun I will definitely shoot the gun as is first.

I have shot 5 rounds of Helice, and have been using M/IM and think they are the right chokes so far.
Our group does something a little different, we start on the 27 yard line, if you run 5 targets you "slide" or back up a yard for the next round or "crank".
You remain there unless you run another 5, if you run another 5 you back up another yard, and so on.
I have only had to slide once in any round, but could see if you had to slide more than twice you would be better off with more choke than M/IM.



Excellent observation! In my experience it is a lot easier to subtract some choke via shell manipulation, than to add any. F & F sounds better all the time doesn't it? Besides you really don't know what the gun is doing until you pattern it properly.

Good luck and Yes, please keep this thread up to date since I live vicariously through all the great superposed shotguns owned by members here.




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