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 Post subject: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:55 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:52 pm
Posts: 21
Location: TX
Have a friend trying to value the below gun. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

1963 Superposed Pigeon Grade 20ga two barrel set (RKLT). Both barrels are 28" (FULL/IM & MOD/IC). Gun is factory cased and in very good condition. All serial numbers matching.

Thank you.




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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:00 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 pm
Posts: 1163
Location: DFW, TEXAS
Froggy, you've asked a question that is hard to answer. We're not ignoring you, it's just hard to estimate a 2 barrel set 20 ga Pigeon with or without pics. 20's earn a premium over 12s, sets over singles, etc but the market is "interesting" right now on O/Us. You can buy a Citori with fake-ish wood grain and a tight radius grip for $2300, while gorgeous hand-engraved, hand-fitted 12 Ga Supers from the 50s and 60s are cheap, around $1200-ish. Crazy world. Of course the Citori has chokes, which eliminates the need for extra barrels.

Is your friend looking for a value for sale or for insurance?

I will take a stab in the dark, wild guess at $3500. Smarter folks than me may be along.

Gig'em

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...911 calls the men that draw the white chalk lines...1911 determines who they draw the lines around...


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:37 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
Frog fan , ND Scotty’s assessment is spot on. I would ,however like to elaborate.
If you are able to post 3 high quality photos each ( top , bottom , sides , barrels /forend , receiver and stock ) In addition one of the top of the receiver ,action closed showing top lever position , one of the buttplate or pad and one of the barrel flats on the left side showing the choke markings. Serial # ( if you are comfortable with that )
This should give this August group here the information they need to give you a reasonable valuation. I hope this helps.
Almost forgot , A factory case ( I would assume it’s a Hartmann or an Airways ) can add value and or entice a sale , so if you could include interior and exterior photos along with any paperwork , hangtags ,keys , etc. that would be beneficial.


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:14 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:01 pm
Posts: 6740
If NDS assessment is right on, and I have no reason to doubt it, then we are indeed in strange time. Back when I wanted a 20 gauge Superposed pretty bad nice field grade 28" guns were going for over $3400 and there has been a lot of inflation since then. Hard to believe one could now acquire a pigeon grade set for that amount of money. I wish I still wanted one. But...If one does not hunt anymore and the kids do not shoot at all then there is little actual use to acquire one and sit and think what could have been. I guess other people must be in a similar situation to drive the price down that low.


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:16 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
Bill , I think NDS just tossed that number out the. My agreement with his post did not include the valuation. A nice grade one 20/28” can fetch 3k


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:54 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 923
I think NoDak Scotty was pretty close on 'worst-case' scenario (considering how little information about the gun was offered).

So, I'll offer the other end of the range of values at $9,500.


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:02 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 pm
Posts: 1163
Location: DFW, TEXAS
Yeah, I hope my WAG is definitely on the low end, but I'm glad we've jump-started the discussion. Pics will help for sure. I do recall I paid $4k for my 1966 Pigeon, but it has the prettiest fiddle-back wood I've ever seen and I can't see myself selling that one.
I still think the B25 market has gone soft, but I hope I'm wrong.

_________________
...911 calls the men that draw the white chalk lines...1911 determines who they draw the lines around...


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:31 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:49 am
Posts: 1041
NoDak Scotty wrote:
* * * . . . I still think the B25 market has gone soft . . .


Totally agree, Scotty.

It's a black gun/semi auto world. Which may soon become a no gun world if certain politicians get elected . . . And then the market will get very soft.

Respectfully,

CFB

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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:56 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
Scotty , thanks for turning this from ( what may be a drive by ) to a potential source of. Knowledge / opinions.
First of all, I would say you and Anatidae sound like you have the price range bracketed. Although a 20 ,2 bbl. Pigeon of that vintage in your valuation would make me throw up a little. ( I love my 20 ga. Pigeons )
My opinion / guess / conjecture : I think the market is a touch soft and some of that could be from the present unpleasantness and lack of discretionary funds. But in the general scheme of things it appears that with exception of the people with the skill set to identify clean original , untouched ,or actually unmolested , upgraded , restocked , salt infested examples , that interest is waning . Speaking for myself , when This Superposed lunacy with me started I knew nothing and made a couple mistakes. If it hadn’t been for guys like yourself ,cfb , muskiejack , rubysue and finding a Browning / FN mentor willing to tolerate endless , stupid questions , I would have given up.
Collecting these guns in their proper condition takes much study and knowledge. I don’t believe there are that any people willing or able to invest the time or interest to make sure they don’t get burned.
It is so much simpler to find a nice CX or Cynergy ( with chokes ) at a good price and go shoot. Okay , that’s enough. Next contestant please :)


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:10 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:01 pm
Posts: 6740
If I were selling it or insuring it I would want about double the current estimate. Hopefully nobody is making a "forced sale".


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:58 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
Bill , IF the gun and second set of bbls. is in “very good “ condition and the stock has not been cut and the case is a Hartmann or Airways in good condition w/ hang tags , owners manual and keys I would agree that your valuation may well be fair. Without quality photos to ascertain what “ very good” means to someone it’s very hard for anyone to put an accurate value to the gun. I hope for the op’s sake that your value (or higher) is accurate. I just don’t see enough to feel comfortable hazarding a reply.
Hopefully it’s not a hit and run post , I really like the Pigeons and some photos of a nice example would be great.


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:04 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 923
Yes, the 'saturated with crap' market is certainly soft - i.e., more sellers than buyers.

But if an all-original and authentic original finishes and configuration example in ANY grade (at a reasonable value) shows-up, it doesn't stay on the market very long. As I think we can all agree, (and some have indicated) those don't appear very often - even to those that can distinguish the difference. That market is not 'soft'. So, isn't that the market we should make reference to - because none of us in this conversation (so far) have any interest in the 'saturated with crap' market, except as an indicator of boredom due the lack of interesting examples?

Easily-influenced people could get the wrong impression about a blanket statement that fails to differentiate which market is claimed as 'soft', if not the overall.

I'm not being critical - just trying to learn something about 'the market'. I was a musician - didn't require any marketing courses. 'You miss a 'high-B' in the finale of Dvorak's 'New World Symphony' and you're toast - simple as that.


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:26 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 pm
Posts: 1163
Location: DFW, TEXAS
I am currently engrossed in The Red Priest, Antonio Vivaldi. Could listen for hours. Especially anything with the Cello. RV 565 for instance. And to think, his works were nearly lost to history until JS Bach discovered them and put out a call across to Europe to find them.

Thanks to all who have commented, I hope Frog Fan gets some good info. Anatidae may be our best source for value of Graded Supers since he's out there still buying them!

_________________
...911 calls the men that draw the white chalk lines...1911 determines who they draw the lines around...


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:38 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 923
Thanks for your vote of confidence, Scotty.

Honestly, I've only bought a nice 2-bbl Tolex case in the last 3 years - no guns. I watch for new listings daily, but I'm not shopping for anything in particular (for myself). I'm neither a profiteer nor Internet tire-kicker.

At this point, scratching an item off a wish list is less exciting than the thrill of a new discovery - unless I can help one of my friends find something on their list.


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:54 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
At this point, scratching an item off a wish list is less exciting than the thrill of a new discovery - unless I can help one of my friends find something on their list.[/quote]

A point that I’ve experienced on several occasions, much to the detriment of my disposable income :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:10 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 923
None of us will know how we did on 'valuations' until we sell-out. Things change - including individual interests and, with any luck our appreciation for function, aesthetics and craftsmanship of an era of FN production gone forever, will increase.

Have you ever thought - If you could afford anything you wanted engraved on a gun, do you have any idea what subject you would choose? Or would it depend on what you think would produce the best re-sale potential? Would that be the criteria for selection of an engraver as well.......or would it be on the basis of their training, style, originality, sense of collaboration, artistry, attention to detail and quality of work?

To some degree, I think the same could apply to a standard production engraving pattern that appeals to (and satisfies) one's individual selection criteria.

I think 'collecting' in its truest sense is when the level of appreciation for artistic, aesthetic, nostalgic and historic value takes precedence over considerations of monetary value (within reason) - a personal connection with the art (or item), itself.......not how its monetary value might appeal to the masses who haven't reached the same level.

Valuations seem more critical for profiteers and Internet 'tire-kickers'. That's why I've concluded that certain items 'find' those that are most passionate about them. Those who aren't sure of the details should pass an opportunity to be 'taken' to those who know whether they are being 'taken' or not..........and visa-versa.


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 Post subject: Re: Superposed Pigeon Grade Value
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:32 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
[quote=“Anatidae”]Have you ever thought - If you could afford anything you wanted engraved on a gun, do you have any idea what subject you would choose? Or would it depend on what you think would produce the best re-sale potential? [/quote]

Speaking for myself , I have several interests that I feel would make for interesting engravings, not the least of which are the “graded” Superposed . Therefore , My interests lie with standard patterns from the pre war period to the mid sixties. As such, anything that I acquire from this genre has been purchased with thought as to aesthetic
,condition and purchase price ( yes, value for the dollar at present point ) but little thought given to resale.

Quote:
I think 'collecting' in its truest sense is when the level of appreciation
for artistic, aesthetic, nostalgic and historic value takes precedence over considerations of monetary value (within reason) - a personal connection with the art (or item), itself.......not how its monetary value might appeal to the masses who haven't reached the same level.


Absolutely, I cannot agree more. Fortunately, the passion for these guns and all the facets mentioned here came at a time in my life where the study of the Superposed and the were withal to acquire some nice examples is now possible.


Quote:
Valuations seem more critical for profiteers and Internet 'tire-kickers'. That's why I've concluded that certain items 'find' those that are most passionate about them. Those who aren't sure of the details should pass an opportunity to be 'taken' to those who know whether they are being 'taken' or not..........and visa-versa.


I’ve seen this happen too many times to discount the theory that the guns find you
! If I could pass some advice to anyone looking to acquire a Super , be it a grade I or a Midas. , would be “ slow down read everything you can on the guns , study photos , talk to people ,in short educate yourself.




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