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 Post subject: Help identify B25/Superposed B2G?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:14 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:22 pm
Posts: 28
Hi there!

I was offered a B2G locally and asked the seller to provide some pics as he is in a different city and now with the covid problem I want to be sure it's worth it for me to go see the gun in person.
Anyhow, I received some photos and have some comments and questions.
Serial number is the same on receiver and barrels, but what about the receiver being 1968 and the barrel 1969? Could it be that he had two barrels, but would that explain a different year?
Scroll engraving is different between barrel and receiver.
Did he destroy one barrel and they had another one made for him? If that was the case would the make different scroll engraving, they'd need the gun to fit the barrels therefore the scroll engraving would've been the same.
Hence, "Browning Arms Factory" on the barrels on an FN gun?
Also I don't see B2G stamped anywhere.
Seller claims he got it like this.

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For higher resolution images, photo library here: https://imgur.com/a/aK0fNc2

Looking forward to you comments guys.

Thanks in advance.
Tio




Last edited by orys on Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:06 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 pm
Posts: 1167
Location: DFW, TEXAS
Verrrrrrry interesting. This was the height of the Saltwood era, maybe the barrels were ruined by salt and Browning replaced the barrels, but used a journeyman engraver??? They were so busy during this time, the attention to detail may have, uh, slipped past quality assurance.
The other thing I noticed is the forearm release tab has the serial number and the S, but no year marking.
Perhaps a call to the Browning Historian, or Art, could shed some light. Without a really good idea of what happened here, I would be hesitant to spend very much, if at all.
If Art or someone knows how the barrel replacement process worked back then, and can vouch for it, then maybe you can get a cool gun with a cool story.

However, it is a FKST BROADway Trap, and those "generally" have lower demand and pricing. Our resident forum high grade expert will know much more about a proper B2G. Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:01 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:22 pm
Posts: 28
NoDak Scotty wrote:
Verrrrrrry interesting. This was the height of the Saltwood era, maybe the barrels were ruined by salt and Browning replaced the barrels, but used a journeyman engraver??? They were so busy during this time, the attention to detail may have, uh, slipped past quality assurance.
The other thing I noticed is the forearm release tab has the serial number and the S, but no year marking.
Perhaps a call to the Browning Historian, or Art, could shed some light. Without a really good idea of what happened here, I would be hesitant to spend very much, if at all.
If Art or someone knows how the barrel replacement process worked back then, and can vouch for it, then maybe you can get a cool gun with a cool story.

However, it is a FKST BROADway Trap, and those "generally" have lower demand and pricing. Our resident forum high grade expert will know much more about a proper B2G. Good luck!


Thanks for your help mate.
I too was suspicious.
Hopefully the more knowledgeable people will step in and shed some light.
But, would a salty forearm or stock start having problems within the first year or next year? I really doubt that. Probably they started realizing the salt problems 5-10 years later. So I doubt they were busy fixing the salt problems in 1969. I think I read somewhere they used salted wood till 1972 which would imply that they knew nothing about its cause till then.
So, I think this is not why the number is different. Maybe the owner wanted a second set of barrels, but that would mean he should send the gun in, so only if you were stupid enough would you engrave it wrong or maybe you made it on purpose so that the owner would identify the set of barrels more easily. Or, simply the owner might've somehow destroyed the barrels and had to have a new set.
I'm saying this because it's only a year difference so they stamped 1969 instead of 1968 so the barrels were indeed made in 1969. If it was done after 1972 they would have stamped S72.
The strange thing is that they changed their serial number system in 1969. so, maybe, the gun is between that period. Maybe it started as 1968 and was finished in 1969?

1963-68 From 1962 serial numbers were followed by the date of manufacture.
2S=12 gauge for the year 1962.
2V=20 gauge for the year 1962.
2F=28 gauge for the year 1962.
2J=.410 bore for the year 1962.
Example: 6556S2 = A 1962 Superposed 12 ga. shotgun with serial number 6556.
S=12 gauge
V=20 gauge
F=28 gauge
J=.410 bore

1969-75 1969 started using two digits for the date of manufacture:
S=12 gauge
V=20 gauge
F=28 gauge
J=.410 bore
This was then preceded by the serial number beginning with 1000.
Example: 1000S69 = A 1969 Superposed 12 ga.. shotgun with a serial number of 1000.
S=12 gauge
V=20 gauge
F=28 gauge
J=.410 bore


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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:37 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:22 pm
Posts: 28
I just got another phot I forgot to post that shows the engravers signature that I can't really make out because I really don't know any of them, looks like BLEUS.


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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed B2G?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:29 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:22 pm
Posts: 28
Some more pics.

https://imgur.com/a/URultiS


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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed B2G?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:19 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 932
I don't have an explanation for the 'S8' on the receiver and 'S9' on the barrels, so I won't speculate.

I'll just offer a few comments and you can draw your own conclusions.

  • 92711 is sequential with 1968
  • The serial number marking on the receiver takes legal precedence
  • I have seen some 1971 FN's marked 'S1' even though the year code changed to the 2-digit format in 1969 thru 1977.
  • 'S9' ended with serial number 99999 S9 - then serialization started over with 1 S69.
  • I agree the fence details on this gun were engraved at different times or by different engravers - and do NOT match
  • ....but the engraving details on the rectangular and square locking bosses match the surrounding engraving on the floor plate of the gun
  • I'm almost certain the B2g pattern was not introduced until 1970 or 1971
  • The normal location for an engraver's signature (on a B2g) is behind the cocking lever pin on the left side - in the frame's tab extension
  • due to the alternate location on this gun (if that 'is' a signature) I believe this gun was upgraded at least once - gold inlays could also have been added at another time.
  • I don't know why anyone would upgrade to a B2g, except for the fact that there are hundreds of B2g's on the used market in Europe and quite a few in the US.
  • the barrel anomalies may indicate an 'opportunity' to purchase a donor gun cheaply enough to make a profit on an upgrade
  • This one has a bbl address - "Browning Arms Company". I do not recall another example with this designation by itself, in the normal FN or Browning bbl address location
  • Browning bbl addressed changed from St. Louis MO to Morgan UT in 1968. If this gun were imported to the US, I believe it would have one or the other, PLUS Montreal, P.Q.

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed B2G?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:31 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:22 pm
Posts: 28
Anatidae wrote:
I don't have an explanation for the 'S8' on the receiver and 'S9' on the barrels, so I won't speculate.

I'll just offer a few comments and you can draw your own conclusions.

  • 92711 is sequential with 1968
  • The serial number marking on the receiver takes precedence
  • I have seen some 1971 FN's marked 'S1' even though the year code change to 2-digit in 1969 thru 1977.
  • 'S9' ended with serial number 99999 S9 - then serialization started over with 1 S69.
  • I agree the fence details on this gun were engraved at different times or by different engravers
  • ....but the engraving details on the rectangular and square locking bosses match the surrounding engraving on the floor plate of the gun
  • I'm almost certain the B2g pattern was not introduced until 1970
  • The normal location for engraver's signature is behind the cocking lever on the left side - in the frame's tab extension
  • due to the alternate location on this gun (if that 'is' a signature) I believe this gun was upgraded at least once - gold inlays could have been added at another time. I don't know why anyone would upgrade to a B2g,except for the fact that there are thousands of B2g's on the used market in Europe and the US.
  • the barrel anomalies may indicate an 'opportunity' to purchase the donor gun cheaply enough to make a profit on an upgrade
  • This one has a bbl address - "Browning Arms Company". I do not recall another example with this designation by itself, where either the FN or Browning bbl address usually occurs
  • Browning bbl address changed from St. Louis MO to Morgan UT in 1968. If this gun were imported to the US, it would have one or the other, PLUS Montreal, P.Q.

Good luck!



Thanks once again for your invaluable help.
I will steer clear immediately, although I've read over here that the B2G engraving "was designed by Master Engraver, Louis Vranken in 1967."
http://blog.daum.net/golsh22/12833121
Also I've seen many B2G examples where the signature was in the actual drawing.
Anyhow, because I had made a deal with the seller not to list the gun till I visited him on Tuesday to check the gun and he gave me his word, I found out that he listed it, so I will not be dealing with him.


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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed B2G?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:18 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:22 pm
Posts: 28
So, nobody figured this out yet?


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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed B2G?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:07 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 932
So, if this is a charade, I give-up. You know more about the gun than we apparently do.

I don’t have a dog in this hunt. And you abandoned any notion of pursuing purchase in your previous message 12 days ago.

Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed B2G?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:29 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:22 pm
Posts: 28
Yes, I abandoned it. Just wanted to know more if it was possible. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed B2G?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:17 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 932
The blog in 'Korean' was interesting but there are many inaccuracies with regard to chronology and those actually responsible for designing certain grades.

I have no reason to doubt Vrancken designed the B2g and C2g and D4g since that duty fell to him and Andre Watrin until 1977 and ultimately until 1983, however I will reserve doubt regarding 'when' those patterns first appeared in the FN catalog.

After all, the translation of some of the blog content refers to the B25 as 'Super Force' top and bottom guns made in Husstel - and deliberry takes 12 months before you touch them. :? 'Sounds like dictation of Ken Jeong's lines from the movie, 'Hangover'. I will assume it is the 'Bing' translation.

I'd be interested in the source for the blog content. Even though many of the images in the blog appear to be the same used in Ned Schwing's book, that's the only similarity.

Also, if the D5g pattern shown in the blog was designed by Dumoulin, then FN would have had to pay a royalty for the use of that pattern since Dumoulin was another gunmaker in Belgium. I suppose anything is possible, though. The D5 pattern was in the FN product line during the pre-war era. The D5g was an adaptation of the D5 pattern that could have appeared in 1965-66 (as stated in the blog) because of the introduction of the 'special chasse' frame in '66-'67, which required redesign of the D5 pattern to fit the new 'canvas' or frame profile - (i.e., neither, traditionally flat-sided, nor sculpted).

Thanks for sharing the blog.


Last edited by Anatidae on Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Help identify B25/Superposed B2G?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:14 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:22 pm
Posts: 28
Great info, thanks!
I need to buy Ned Schwing's book myself to keep as reference.




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