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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:07 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
("The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) is a United States law that protects firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable when crimes have been committed with their products. However, both manufacturers and dealers can still be held liable for damages resulting from defective products, breach of contract, criminal misconduct, and other actions for which they are directly responsible in much the same manner that any U.S.-based manufacturer of consumer products is held responsible. They may also be held liable for negligent entrustment when they have reason to know a gun is intended for use in a crime.

The PLCAA is codified at 15 U.S.C. §§ 7901–7903.)



Right or wrong, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected the argument that the PLCAA applies and allowed the lawsuit against Remington to proceed. I don't agree. It's like if someone kills someone with a hammer. Are they going to be allowed to sue Stanley, which made the hammer?

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/12/77848792 ... to-proceed




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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:12 pm 
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Coopdog wrote:
The company will be sold off in parts, some of which will live on. Remington ammunition, The Remington name itself, the 870 and 1100 and no doubt other components are very valuable assets.


Consider Beretta Holdings. Beretta has acquired many many insolvent or distressed companies-- Benelli, Franchi, A.Uberti, Stoeger, Sako, Tikka, Victrix Armaments, Chapuis Armes, Steiner, and Burris.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:34 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Coopdog wrote:
The company will be sold off in parts, some of which will live on. Remington ammunition, The Remington name itself, the 870 and 1100 and no doubt other components are very valuable assets.


Consider Beretta Holdings. Beretta has acquired many many insolvent or distressed companies-- Benelli, Franchi, A.Uberti, Stoeger, Sako, Tikka, Victrix Armaments, Chapuis Armes, Steiner, and Burris.


It was some of these that I was thinking of. Might the same thing transpire with Remington?

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:02 pm 
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I know the Custom Shop opened backed up on the 13th after being closed for a month, as long as my 700 grade IV gets finished.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:45 pm 
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Tidefanatic wrote:
It was some of these that I was thinking of. Might the same thing transpire with Remington?


Might? If we all just want baseless speculation and wild guesses, have at it. That has already been going on for some time, as in the Navajo Nation . . . the same non-story that happened (or actually, didn't happen) last go 'round.

According to the Remington memo, the owners (the banks) are looking for a buyer and if they can't find one, it goes to auction next month. Whatever happens will be clear when it actually happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:36 pm 
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:(


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:03 am 
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Coopdog wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
("The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) is a United States law that protects firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable when crimes have been committed with their products. However, both manufacturers and dealers can still be held liable for damages resulting from defective products, breach of contract, criminal misconduct, and other actions for which they are directly responsible in much the same manner that any U.S.-based manufacturer of consumer products is held responsible. They may also be held liable for negligent entrustment when they have reason to know a gun is intended for use in a crime.

The PLCAA is codified at 15 U.S.C. §§ 7901–7903.)



Right or wrong, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected the argument that the PLCAA applies and allowed the lawsuit against Remington to proceed. I don't agree. It's like if someone kills someone with a hammer. Are they going to be allowed to sue Stanley, which made the hammer?

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/12/77848792 ... to-proceed


Not exactly. Actually, no, the Supreme Court made no comment, much less a ruling on the matter at all. They merely declined to intervene sans any commentary at all. It is the Connecticut Supreme Court that allowed the Sandy Hook lawsuit to proceed on the basis of Connecticut state law that applies nowhere else. This litigation, come December, will be SIX YEARS OLD. THe orginal suit failed (negligent entrustment) and was changed to marketing. Note also, that the suit was already dismissed: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... -gun-maker back in 2016.

It still isn't settled, it was kicked back to Connecticut, and now with the current Ch. 11 situation, it will fail. No one will possibly buy Remington assuming prior liability for anything. You wouldn't buy a hot dog stand assuming liability for last year's chili dogs, no one would.
Anyone who buys any business, or part of a business, is going to proceed only if it is free of encumbrances. The LV shooter had fourteen AR-15's and eight AR-10's in his comped hortel room. No gun manufacturer was sued.

The whole "marketing angle" is just plain stupid. Nothing was marketed to the Sandy Hook shooter at all: he didn't own a Bushmaster. He killed his mother to get access to it, Mom committed no crime . . . she was murdered in her sleep by her own son.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:26 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
lossking wrote:
I know you're never wrong :wink: , but hope that you are about this. {hs#


You can ask my ex-wife for a different point of view. :shock:


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:18 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Coopdog wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
("The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) is a United States law that protects firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable when crimes have been committed with their products. However, both manufacturers and dealers can still be held liable for damages resulting from defective products, breach of contract, criminal misconduct, and other actions for which they are directly responsible in much the same manner that any U.S.-based manufacturer of consumer products is held responsible. They may also be held liable for negligent entrustment when they have reason to know a gun is intended for use in a crime.

The PLCAA is codified at 15 U.S.C. §§ 7901–7903.)



Right or wrong, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected the argument that the PLCAA applies and allowed the lawsuit against Remington to proceed. I don't agree. It's like if someone kills someone with a hammer. Are they going to be allowed to sue Stanley, which made the hammer?

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/12/77848792 ... to-proceed


Not exactly. Actually, no, the Supreme Court made no comment, much less a ruling on the matter at all. They merely declined to intervene sans any commentary at all. It is the Connecticut Supreme Court that allowed the Sandy Hook lawsuit to proceed on the basis of Connecticut state law that applies nowhere else. This litigation, come December, will be SIX YEARS OLD. THe orginal suit failed (negligent entrustment) and was changed to marketing. Note also, that the suit was already dismissed: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... -gun-maker back in 2016.

It still isn't settled, it was kicked back to Connecticut, and now with the current Ch. 11 situation, it will fail. No one will possibly buy Remington assuming prior liability for anything. You wouldn't buy a hot dog stand assuming liability for last year's chili dogs, no one would.
Anyone who buys any business, or part of a business, is going to proceed only if it is free of encumbrances. The LV shooter had fourteen AR-15's and eight AR-10's in his comped hortel room. No gun manufacturer was sued.

The whole "marketing angle" is just plain stupid. Nothing was marketed to the Sandy Hook shooter at all: he didn't own a Bushmaster. He killed his mother to get access to it, Mom committed no crime . . . she was murdered in her sleep by her own son.


This illustrates the hazards of manufacturing and/or selling firearms in states with the Marxist Socialist Progressive agenda. It is politically driven malicious prosecution and if I were a manufacturer or seller in those states, would either require a release of liability at the retail level or simply quit doing business in those jurisdictions which is probably their end game anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:42 am 
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In 1912, Remington and Union Metallic Cartridge Company were combined into a single entity, called Remington UMC. In the early 21st century, Remington still produces U.M.C. brand ammunition. In 1915, the plant at Ilion was expanded, and with this expansion became basically the same plant as today.

That was 105 years ago when Remington was helping the Allies win World Wars. New York State was a different place then, it was a far different place even 20 years ago. Right now, it isn't possible to manufacture in New York or Connecticut. Not hust firearms, but much of anything.

Consider the car industry.

Quote:
4. Texas

There are 502 auto manufacturing establishments in Texas, including 31 motor vehicle manufacturing, 178 body and trailer manufacturing and 293 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR.

3. Indiana

There are 519 auto manufacturing establishments in Indiana, including 23 motor vehicle manufacturing, 165 body and trailer manufacturing and 331 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR.

2. Ohio

There are 599 auto manufacturing establishments in Ohio, including 24 motor vehicle manufacturing, 96 body and trailer manufacturing and 479 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR.

1. Michigan

There are 975 auto manufacturing establishments in Michigan, including 90 motor vehicle manufacturing, 95 body and trailer manufacturing and 790 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR. In 2014, the auto industry supported 532,000 jobs in Michigan, more than any other state in the U.S. Ohio was second with 305,000 jobs.


Long term, it is clear that manufacturers need to vacate anti-gun, anti-manufacturing states. Tesla told officials in Travis County, Texas, the automaker wants to invest about $1 billion to build a 4 million to 5 million square foot vehicle assembly plant employing 5,000 people on the grounds of what is now a cement operation near Austin as of June 18, 2020.

Firearm and ammo plants aren't that pricey. "LITTLE ROCK (KATV) — Fiocchio of America is opening a $15 million ammunition manufacturing center to Little Rock, state officials announced Wednesday."

The noose around Remington's neck is called New York. New York anf Connecticut just plain suck for manufacturing. Whether Winchester formerly of New Haven, Connecticut or Marlin formerly of North Haven, Connecticut . . . the writing is on the wall and has been for decades. Though painful, Remington just has to leave NY.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:56 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
In 1912, Remington and Union Metallic Cartridge Company were combined into a single entity, called Remington UMC. In the early 21st century, Remington still produces U.M.C. brand ammunition. In 1915, the plant at Ilion was expanded, and with this expansion became basically the same plant as today.

That was 105 years ago when Remington was helping the Allies win World Wars. New York State was a different place then, it was a far different place even 20 years ago. Right now, it isn't possible to manufacture in New York or Connecticut. Not hust firearms, but much of anything.

Consider the car industry.

Quote:
4. Texas

There are 502 auto manufacturing establishments in Texas, including 31 motor vehicle manufacturing, 178 body and trailer manufacturing and 293 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR.

3. Indiana

There are 519 auto manufacturing establishments in Indiana, including 23 motor vehicle manufacturing, 165 body and trailer manufacturing and 331 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR.

2. Ohio

There are 599 auto manufacturing establishments in Ohio, including 24 motor vehicle manufacturing, 96 body and trailer manufacturing and 479 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR.

1. Michigan

There are 975 auto manufacturing establishments in Michigan, including 90 motor vehicle manufacturing, 95 body and trailer manufacturing and 790 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR. In 2014, the auto industry supported 532,000 jobs in Michigan, more than any other state in the U.S. Ohio was second with 305,000 jobs.


Long term, it is clear that manufacturers need to vacate anti-gun, anti-manufacturing states. Tesla told officials in Travis County, Texas, the automaker wants to invest about $1 billion to build a 4 million to 5 million square foot vehicle assembly plant employing 5,000 people on the grounds of what is now a cement operation near Austin as of June 18, 2020.

Firearm and ammo plants aren't that pricey. "LITTLE ROCK (KATV) — Fiocchio of America is opening a $15 million ammunition manufacturing center to Little Rock, state officials announced Wednesday."

The noose around Remington's neck is called New York. New York anf Connecticut just plain suck for manufacturing. Whether Winchester formerly of New Haven, Connecticut or Marlin formerly of North Haven, Connecticut . . . the writing is on the wall and has been for decades. Though painful, Remington just has to leave NY.


Agree. I would both hope and believe that departing NY would be part and parcel of whatever the " new deal " is for Remington. I think it`s a shame for the people of Ilion and the region, but I can`t fathom how they could possibly blame anyone or anything other than their state government. Well, maybe Cerberus too, but.....

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:31 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
In 1912, Remington and Union Metallic Cartridge Company were combined into a single entity, called Remington UMC. In the early 21st century, Remington still produces U.M.C. brand ammunition. In 1915, the plant at Ilion was expanded, and with this expansion became basically the same plant as today.

That was 105 years ago when Remington was helping the Allies win World Wars. New York State was a different place then, it was a far different place even 20 years ago. Right now, it isn't possible to manufacture in New York or Connecticut. Not hust firearms, but much of anything.

Consider the car industry.

Quote:
4. Texas

There are 502 auto manufacturing establishments in Texas, including 31 motor vehicle manufacturing, 178 body and trailer manufacturing and 293 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR.

3. Indiana

There are 519 auto manufacturing establishments in Indiana, including 23 motor vehicle manufacturing, 165 body and trailer manufacturing and 331 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR.

2. Ohio

There are 599 auto manufacturing establishments in Ohio, including 24 motor vehicle manufacturing, 96 body and trailer manufacturing and 479 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR.

1. Michigan

There are 975 auto manufacturing establishments in Michigan, including 90 motor vehicle manufacturing, 95 body and trailer manufacturing and 790 parts manufacturing establishments, according to CAR. In 2014, the auto industry supported 532,000 jobs in Michigan, more than any other state in the U.S. Ohio was second with 305,000 jobs.


Long term, it is clear that manufacturers need to vacate anti-gun, anti-manufacturing states. Tesla told officials in Travis County, Texas, the automaker wants to invest about $1 billion to build a 4 million to 5 million square foot vehicle assembly plant employing 5,000 people on the grounds of what is now a cement operation near Austin as of June 18, 2020.

Firearm and ammo plants aren't that pricey. "LITTLE ROCK (KATV) — Fiocchio of America is opening a $15 million ammunition manufacturing center to Little Rock, state officials announced Wednesday."

The noose around Remington's neck is called New York. New York anf Connecticut just plain suck for manufacturing. Whether Winchester formerly of New Haven, Connecticut or Marlin formerly of North Haven, Connecticut . . . the writing is on the wall and has been for decades. Though painful, Remington just has to leave NY.



No question. Let's not forget the Left Coast that after many decades, chased Weatherby out to Sheridan, WY. CA state's loss is our gain. Hopefully, Remington can do likewise.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:14 pm 
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Spot on commentary, gentlemen.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:28 pm 
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Let us also not forget, especially on election day, that it is DEMOCRATS who have fubared Remington and the gun industry in NY, CN and elsewhere. Vote accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:00 pm 
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Renault continues to be the most popular car in Portugal, while fellow French manufacturer Peugeot was second on the list of sales. Does anyone here care? Portuguese people earn USD 25,367 per year on average, much less than the OECD average of USD 43,241. That explains why Herstal Group (Browning) has largely vacated Belgium in favor of Portugal. John Browning himself was not a manufacturing guy, and "Browning Arms" was founded after his death. FN has been in financial trouble since WWII and has switched hands several times. They aren't doing well today, for in the COVID world inexpensive pistols, shotguns, and AR's are the biggest sellers. Browning is not a player in those markets.

Remington was screwed by the Sandy Hook saga. Perhaps due to this, they have backed off AR platform rifles. If you go to the Remington website, where are the R-15's? Yet, today, people are buying AR-15's and small 9mm pistols vigorously. Remington hasn't participated in the Covid Boom. When your state shuts you down, how can you?

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:45 pm 
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The strategy for the savvy buyer is to somehow separate the profitable ammunition
part away from the problem plagued lawsuit magnet firearm side as was done with
Winchester although there the circumstances were different with the Olin's keeping
ammunition production in the family.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:27 am 
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Remington was also barred by Cuomo from building respirators. Strange move when they were screaming for more. He could not allow them to make any money during the shutdown.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:56 am 
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If indeed the divisions of Remington are separated and parceled out, I`m confident that the firearms manufacturing division would be welcome in the sunny South or somewhere in the West ( not too far west!), either as a wholly owned subsidiary of another company or a stand alone ( unlikely, I would think ).

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:05 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Tidefanatic wrote:
Am I just imagining it, but isn`t it somewhat common for gun companies to be owned by other gun companies?


One would HOPE. It is no longer possible to operate a large firearm company in the state of New York. I personally love upstate N.Y.--- but apparently New York does not.


Agree!
New York=Antigun
New York=high taxes
New York=unions
Strike 3


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Current Status
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:18 am 
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Randy, looks as though your well intentioned post to provide a venue for information and discussion of Remington`s situation is in the process of being hijacked by the political crowd. Come on guys... got a whole separate forum for this.



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