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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:15 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
a theory that John Moses Browning certainly didn't subscribe to, using 87 parts rather than 12 whenever possible.

I would respectfully disagree with that statement...and I think if JMB were here today, he would too!

As my sig suggests, I am lucky enough to own multiple JMB designed machine guns. They are all marvels of simplicity in comparison to contemporary designs of the day...so much so, the M2 .50 remains in service today, almost 100 years after its design and the BAR's simple gas system design became the basis of what is arguably considered the best LMG design of all time...the MAG58 or M240B as issued by our own military.

My point was...unnecessary complexity is both bad design and bad engineering.

RandyWakeman wrote:
There is nothing desirable about "the tail."

I don't necessarily disagree, but you missed my point completely. I question why didn't Remington design a "tailless," scaled, VM bolt assembly for the V3? There's no reason a modified VM bolt assembly design wouldn't work with the V3's receiver action spring placement. Simple.

Having just bought (3) V3s, I hope my concerns are misplaced and my sons and I have many years and thousands of rounds of reliable service.



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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:04 pm 
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There isn't much difference between the number of parts in either bolt assembly. That the cam pin is at 90 degrees hardly makes any difference, for the VM cam pin (#43, above) is also at 90 degrees.

As for all the complete details of what Remington designed and tested throughout the V3's four year development cycle (5 years for the walnut), only Remington could speak to that. Most are familiar with the two basic failure to cycle modes: failure to eject and failure to feed. Remington took this quite a bit deeper than that, identifying something like thirty-six distinct possibilities that could cause a failure to cycle and fire.

The design goal was come up with a 10% more reliable autoloader as compared to any other autoloader on the market. What they ended up with was a surprise to everyone at Remington, for the V3 proved to be 50% more reliable in their testing protocol than any other autoloader: 50% more reliable than the second place finisher, which was the Benelli inertia action.

One of the design considerations was reduced bolt retraction force.

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:57 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
There isn't much difference between the number of parts in either bolt assembly.

If you take the VM tail is out of the equation, there's approximately 50% more parts in the V3 bolt by my count...which is context of my point. Again, I'm not suggesting they should have used the VM bolt assembly with the tail...but a modified "tailless" VM bolt assembly.


RandyWakeman wrote:
That the cam pin is at 90 degrees hardly makes any difference, for the VM cam pin (#43, above) is also at 90 degrees.

Sorry, but it makes all the difference. The V3 cam pin is staked at 90 degrees to the carrier plate...where it broke on Apexcars' bolt assembly. While the VM's cam pin is oriented 90 degrees to the bolt, it floats and cannot snap off because it is not fixed in place.

Further, the cam action of the 2 are vastly different...the VM cams the bolt not unlike numerous successful designs to include the AR15/M16. The camming surface of the V3 is on the bolt's tail, not in a tract in the bolt carrier...I think you nailed it that camming surface / cam pin on Apexcars' bolt bound up and something had to give...a situation not possible with the VM bolt.

Hold both bolt assemblies in your hand and rotate the bolts in and out...a vast difference in which one is smoother. I fear this won't be the last of cam pin breakage we hear about the V3...I do hope I'm wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:39 pm 
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hkg3k wrote:
If you take the VM tail is out of the equation, there's approximately 50% more parts in the V3 bolt by my count...which is context of my point. Again, I'm not suggesting they should have used the VM bolt assembly with the tail...but a modified "tailless" VM bolt assembly.


The problem with your suggestion is that it comes at least six years too late. :lol:

Out of the last 50,000 V3's that have been shipped, how many have had an issue? V3's have been shipping for over two years. If there is some sort of deluge of cam pin obsession, not many people have bothered to talk about it. It also has a written lifetime warranty. Unless you are incredibly superstitious, you'll just go shoot them rather than engaging in prophecy.

There is no question that anything man and machines make can have problems, regardless of price, regardless of manufacturer. If you can merely eyeball a shotgun and instantly redesign it for the better, you've missed your calling.

I have no idea how many bolt designs were considered and tested during the four year development cycle of the V3. It is an interesting trivia question for me to pose at next month's SHOT show.

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:11 pm 
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I am a retired licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer. And without knowing all the desires and constraints that were placed on the design team I don't feel competent to make an analysis. Not to mention I don't know the cost analysis breakdown of the utilization of the manufacturing line, or the materials costs, or dozens of other highly pertinent things. I don't know if the cam pin design is weak, or it's the method of fabrication that may be an issue, or if it is in fact just fine. Was it a one off mating part issue ? I have no idea. There are millions of things that operate at a 90 degree angle with zero issues. You just need to understand the loads and take that in to account.
The genius of John Browning to me is that he was first. Almost every design for anything one looks at today you can see the influence of previous designs. He had no such luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:25 pm 
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It’s unfortunate it happened and you’ll be fine with the lifetime warranty. I’m not worried about mine at all. Tens of thousands are on circulation (if not more) and only heard of 2 with this issue. For me, it’s a non-issue

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:57 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
The problem with your suggestion is that it comes at least six years too late. :lol:

Certainly...but then again, I doubt my input would have been considered had I even been in that loop. :D

RandyWakeman wrote:
V3's have been shipping for over two years. If there is some sort of deluge of cam pin obsession, not many people have bothered to talk about it. It also has a written lifetime warranty. Unless you are incredibly superstitious, you'll just go shoot them rather than engaging in prophecy.

Perspective. I'll try not to further "pre-b*tch" the breakage of what "appears" to be an inferior part design and move on to actually shooting them when we have good weather and my sons are in...I am looking forward to that.

RandyWakeman wrote:
If you can merely eyeball a shotgun and instantly redesign it for the better, you've missed your calling.

Oh come on :D Anyone with a shred of mechanical aptitude can look at pics of the stripped bolt assemblies and easily see the VM is simple and aptly built...vs the V3 bolt assembly which is more complicated with a glaring weak point.

RandyWakeman wrote:
I have no idea how many bolt designs were considered and tested during the four year development cycle of the V3. It is an interesting trivia question for me to pose at next month's SHOT show.

I would honestly love to hear Remington's answer...

kuffs06 wrote:
It’s unfortunate it happened and you’ll be fine with the lifetime warranty. I’m not worried about mine at all. Tens of thousands are on circulation (if not more) and only heard of 2 with this issue. For me, it’s a non-issue

I hope you're right. To me, the VM is the gold standard...and now that I've been able to compare the two, it's frustrating Remington didn't just simply scale the design and tweak it to remove any weaknesses such as adding the compensating valves to the versaport system.

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:02 am 
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hkg3k wrote:
Oh come on :D Anyone with a shred of mechanical aptitude can look at pics of the stripped bolt assemblies and easily see the VM is simple and aptly built...vs the V3 bolt assembly which is more complicated with a glaring weak point.


After your phone call to Remington engineering expressing your peculiar insight, you'll be laughing at a dial tone in short order.

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:13 pm 
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kuffs06 wrote:
I’m not worried about mine at all. Tens of thousands are on circulation (if not more) and only heard of 2 with this issue. For me, it’s a non-issue


The last number I heard, some time ago, was 70,000 in circulation. If there was even a 1% failure rate, that would be 700 shotguns which would break the internet. We can all forget belated speculation and random conjecture: that's what the millions of rounds fired in pre-production testing was all about. Numerous prototypes were taken past 25,000 and 50,000 rounds then inspected for wear. From the original prototypes that were rode hard and put away wet, they did make numerous changes in tolerances and metallurgy, although there is nothing readily apparent between a prototype and a production model that I can discern. The prototype from 2015 has been shot so much the SuperCell pad is falling apart, yet there is no wear to the action.

Remington was cautious with the V3. Two years ago, it started shipping in quantity. Originally, the walnut models were supposed to ship at the same time. Forearms were cracking and Remington ordered yet another full round of extended endurance testing: that delayed the release of the walnut models for an entire year. After all this time, to concoct a problem based on one or two incident reporting is like going back, struggling to prove that the bumblebee cannot fly. There isn't much future in that pursuit.

Major hunting lodges like Stan Jones Mallard Lodge in Arkansas have begun to standardize on the V3 as house guns. Every duck killed with Stan Jones in Arkansas is with 1700 fps Hypersonic loads, not at all blooper or promo loads, and that's a whole heckuva lot of ducks and a whole heckuva lot of shooting. If something comes up at arms service, the parts go to Huntsville for engineering review. If something is infrequent and extremely rare, something less than one-tenth of one percent, there isn't much to work with. That's what the warranty is for.

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:13 pm 
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I'm the other guy that reported this type of failure last year. Mine appeared to be due to a manufacturing flaw on the bolt head - it had a bur that made it tight in the bolt body. It was difficult to turn the bolt head manually in the body, and I'm sure this caused excessive stress on the cam pin. Remington replaced the bolt assembly & barrel.

The new bolt cycled smoothly, but was quite tight during assembly and removal. I had 3-4 failure-to-feed issues early on in cold weather, but after a couple of boxes of hunting loads it seemed to 'break-in' and I've had no more issues. It's been 100% reliable throughout the current waterfowl season.

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Mine is due back tomorrow. (Awesome turn around time from Remington, especially considering the holidays.) I will see if there is any info about what they found and post it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:47 pm 
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Oh Oh. People disagreeing on a thread! Discussion is not allowed here. Witness the V3 blowback issue or the Benelli "doesn't shoot where it's aimed". Things we would like to know about potential gun purchases remain 'hidden'. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:36 pm 
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I got my shottie back from Remington on Tuesday. The notes in the box said that they replaced the part and polished and honed the chamber.

I went on a duck hunt on Wednesday and shot almost a full box of Kent SilverSteel 3" 1425 fps 1 1/4 oz number 3s and had no problem at all. Fingers crossed that it doesn't happen again because I still don't trust it. I will try to give it a workout on the clays and skeet courses in the next few month. Assuming it makes it through that I will call it good, if not it will be getting sold.


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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:35 am 
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Mine is having to go back after about 100 rounds. The operating handle has been very difficult to remove to disassemble or reassemble after cleaning. Now it appears to be stuck in there and the little plate that the witness marks were on for alignment appears to have broken off during my last hunting trip. Not complaining just reporting my issue, and I know Remington will fix it. I would rather send it in and let them check it out and fix it than risk any further damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:43 am 
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Keep us posted on what happens

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:23 pm 
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I agree!

quote="hkg3k"]
hkg3k wrote:
but it looks as though some engineer has the designed the V3's bolt assembly to be different (from the VM)...just for the sake of being different.

Virginian wrote:
Thank you so much for that expert opinion.

You must be an engineer :D

Here's a pic of a stripped VM bolt assembly (minus tail)
Image

Here's a pic of a stripped V3 bolt assembly
Image

Notice how the cam pin is attached perpendicular to the carrier plate...and how that pin snapped on apexcars's gun and at least another from the other thread.

It's always been my understanding that 90 degrees is really good at focusing stresses...and that smart engineering / design is about making things simpler, rather than complex.

To my eye (as a multiple V3 owner) the V3 bolt assembly design is unnecessarily complex and the cam pin design in particular is poor.

RandyWakeman wrote:
The V3 was designed from scratch to have a more compact receiver and significantly lighter weight than the VM.

Understood...but what part of that dictates a scaled VM bolt assembly could not have been utilized?...that a more complex and arguably more fragile design had to be employed?

BTW, a scaled VM bolt assembly would probably weigh less than the current V3 bolt assembly...my (tailless) VM bolt assembly weighs 13.9 oz as is and the V3 bolt assembly weighs 13.2 oz

Image

Image[/quote]


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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Remington spent over three years testing the V3, with numerous guns taken up past 25,000, 35,000, 50,000 rounds. They did that initially with the synthetic, then repeated the process all over again with the walnut versions. I met with several of the Remington staff in Huntsville who do the actual shooting. Along the way, several small tolerance and metallurgical changes were made. It is the most extensive, thorough, brutal extended testing of am autoloading shotgun I'm aware of.

It has paid off for Remington. I recently met with most of the Remington management is Las Vegas including their general firearms manager, their shotgun manager, and their rifle product manager. The results for Remington have been spectacularly good: the return rate / warranty rate with the V3 has been so very, very low it isn't so much as a blip on their radar.

I certainly have not put millions of rounds through V3's as Remington has. However, I have exercised and wrung out four examples over the last three years, starting with this pre-production model. It has been through the gamut from target loads to Hypersonic Steel to heavy lead turkey loads.



That gun has been shot so much by now, the recoil pad is falling apart. Yet, that gun still runs like a top. It is the best autoloading shotgun Remington has ever made and the last seven years of data supports that.

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:09 am 
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TimberHog wrote:
I agree!


Yeah...it's like an "old timer" from the 1100/11-87 group made their way onto the V3 design team and demanded the V3 bolt assembly incorporate a carrier plate...creating additional parts, complexity and that awful cam pin design.

The tappet gas piston design negates the need for the carrier plate in the bolt assembly...the Versa Max demonstrates that quite effectively. Were the V3 an action-bar design like the 1100/11-87...maybe the carrier plate makes more sense.

Regardless...I bought (3) V3's and I'm counting on them to match the standard my Versa Max's have set in my experience...we'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:44 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Remington spent over three years testing the V3, with numerous guns taken up past 25,000, 35,000, 50,000 rounds. They did that initially with the synthetic, then repeated the process all over again with the walnut versions. I met with several of the Remington staff in Huntsville who do the actual shooting. Along the way, several small tolerance and metallurgical changes were made. It is the most extensive, thorough, brutal extended testing of am autoloading shotgun I'm aware of.



I wish Benelli had spent over a week testing their products.

As for simple design... I spent my entire career in software design and development. We had a saying: "Any idiot can make things complicated". Meaning, anyone can write a program - but is it clear and concise? Is it easy to maintain? We finally developed a way to write programs that were virtually fool proof. We insisted that our coders follow the method. We once installed a complete software sub-system with zero errors. Six people on the team - a few dozen programs making up the system.

Typically, the best design is the simplest design that gets the job done - sort of like Occam's razor...


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 Post subject: Re: Broke my V3 Field Synthetic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:26 pm 
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hkg3k wrote:
Apexcars wrote:
When I got the gun home and took it apart the pin that sticks up from the bolt carrier and rotates the bolt had broken off inside the bolt.

As a new owner of a V3, I find this disappointing and troubling.

When I first got the (3) V3s I recently purchased...without stripping their bolt assemblies, I could see they had more parts than the Versa Max bolt assembly. I didn't however know the exact configuration of the V3's bolt assembly until I removed and stripped it side by side with the VM just now after reading through this thread.

My apologies in advance if this observation has already been made...but it looks as though some engineer has the designed the V3's bolt assembly to be different (from the VM)...just for the sake of being different. I believe Remington could have done a lot worse than simply scaling the VM bolt assembly and using it without the "tail." From my count, the V3's bolt assembly contains ~50% more parts than the VM bolt assembly.

Comparing the V3 and VM bolt assemblies...I see simple and strong (VM) along side of complex and possibly fragile (V3). Hey Remington...why did you not utilize the already successful design of the VM bolt assembly in the V3? This is a "head-scratcher" for me.


The more you dig into this gun the more you will see just how far from the Versamax's quality it is. Maybe that's why they can be sold for half the price ?

Yes the bolt design is just insane. Absolutely no reason for that many parts when you had a perfectly good system in the Versamax.

As for the Remington brass, did you really think they would tell you anything different. Surely you cant be that gullible or naïve ?




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