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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:56 am 
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Tidefanatic wrote:
lossking wrote:
I think that's just the way it is these days for most sub-$2,000 shotguns. It's kind of a crap shoot as to whether you will get one that doesn't have something wrong.


Loss, that`s an interesting point of view. Granted, I don`t see how there could be much question that some sub-2K guns are better than others. As we know, since we`re discussing Remington, the V3 is a sub-2K gun by a wide margin. I would think that to qualify as a " crap shoot " ( I acknowledge that you said " most", not " all " :D ) ,far more complaints would be gracing these pages than currently are concerning that particular gun. Matter of fact, if we`re discussing sub-2K guns in general, I`d submit that the Beretta A300 Outlander and the Fabarm L4S Hunter series ( at least the Initial and Gray ) have far more proponents than detractors on SW, thereby putting their qualifications as " crap shoots " in serious jeopardy.


Tide, it's somewhat of a crap shoot when you buy a new Winchester that has to go back twice, many Remingtons have issues including, but not limited to, the early V3 blowback problem, umpteen Benelli SBE3s are returned for POI issues which may or may not be remedied, etc., etc. You have a point, but more proponents than detractors just means that more good guns went out than faulty ones. IMO, a new gun buyer today stands a much greater chance of having to return a new gun to the maker than ever before.Individual mileage varies, of course.




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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:30 am 
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lossking wrote:
Tidefanatic wrote:
lossking wrote:
I think that's just the way it is these days for most sub-$2,000 shotguns. It's kind of a crap shoot as to whether you will get one that doesn't have something wrong.


Loss, that`s an interesting point of view. Granted, I don`t see how there could be much question that some sub-2K guns are better than others. As we know, since we`re discussing Remington, the V3 is a sub-2K gun by a wide margin. I would think that to qualify as a " crap shoot " ( I acknowledge that you said " most", not " all " :D ) ,far more complaints would be gracing these pages than currently are concerning that particular gun. Matter of fact, if we`re discussing sub-2K guns in general, I`d submit that the Beretta A300 Outlander and the Fabarm L4S Hunter series ( at least the Initial and Gray ) have far more proponents than detractors on SW, thereby putting their qualifications as " crap shoots " in serious jeopardy.


Tide, it's somewhat of a crap shoot when you buy a new Winchester that has to go back twice, many Remingtons have issues including, but not limited to, the early V3 blowback problem, umpteen Benelli SBE3s are returned for POI issues which may or may not be remedied, etc., etc. You have a point, but more proponents than detractors just means that more good guns went out than faulty ones. IMO, a new gun buyer today stands a much greater chance of having to return a new gun to the maker than ever before.Individual mileage varies, of course.



Understood. I know we can`t get there from here, but reliability data and information would be both useful and interesting IMO. I suspect that some brands and models are greater crap shoots than others, just can`t prove it I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:58 am 
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Tidefanatic wrote:
I suspect that some brands and models are greater crap shoots than others, just can`t prove it I guess.


I wholeheartedly agree. I also suspect it would be a real eye-opener for brand-lemmings.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:19 am 
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lossking wrote:
I think that's just the way it is these days for most sub-$2,000 shotguns. It's kind of a crap shoot as to whether you will get one that doesn't have something wrong.


Well, I don't agree at all. "Sub-$2000 shotguns" covers a LOT of ground.

Examples:

If you buy a new 870 Wingmaster, the chances of getting a "bad one" is extremely low. While some people aren't happy with anything, so it seems, it is hardly a gamble.

As far as buying a Remington V3 walnut, a V3 Waterfowl Pro, a V3 Turkey Pro or even a TAC-13. . . who has a problem gun? Anyone? It isn't remotely close to a crap-shoot.

I started with Remington as this is a Remington forum, but there are countless other examples. I've been through not just countless Remingtons, but countless examples of many brands.

I love Fabarm L4S 3 inch models: they aren't at all problem guns. It may not cycle your slow 1 oz. reloads out of the box-- but, they aren't supposed to. If you feed a shotgun non-recommended ammunition, it is hardly a gun problem-- it is a user problem.

What about Retay, a new brand in the U.S. that is selling extremely well? I just called Briley who has handled the warranty work for Retay from Day One, speaking with Rhea. They see "about one Retay per year" returned for warranty work per Rhea at Briley. That is just about the opposite of the crap-shoot theory.

As with any model, it may not fit you, or you may just not love it for various, sundry, or borderline mysterious reasons. None of these examples are crap-shoots at all, and in addition to that . . . all of them have at least five year written warranties.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:31 am 
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I think it all boils down to whatever YOU get at the time. If yours is good, then the company of that one is great as far as you’re concerned. If the one you have had problems, then the company is producing junk as far as your dealings. It’s a roll of the dice. Guns, scopes, reloaders , appliances , cars .... whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:46 am 
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I think any reasonable person would agree that the average run of the mill shotgun is not made with the same attention to detail as in the past. Manufacturers' bottom line versus always rising costs coupled with mass production does not always result in a superior product as Winchester proved in 1964.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:06 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
oyeme wrote:
After viewing this thread continue for almost 7 pages I have come to the conclusion that everyone has their fixed opinions on Remington quality, and they are not going to alter them regardless of facts, figures, or any other person's opinions. It is a great deal like discussing politics nowadays. In other words, it is a futile exercise.

But don't let that unsolicited comment dissuade further discussions. Carry on. 8)


What the hell else we have going on right now?:-)


This is definitely more of a "passing the time" thing for me than anything else. If someone wants to buy something, they're going to look for opinions that match their pre-conceived notions to justify the purchase.

Virginian wrote:
Since we are voicing opinions, mine is that Jeepwm69 just wants to get on the stump and rail against Remington.


It's not just Remington. The big domestic gun makers all saw massive declines in quality over the years. Remington held onto making good guns long after Colt, Smith and Wesson, Winchester, and a host of others started spiraling in quality.

My older Remingtons came from my mother's family. 1900, Model 11, 11-48, a 510 single shot 22, 12A 22 pump, even an old 32 Rimfire Eliot derringer that belonged to my great, great grandfather.

Dad was a Winchester man. He's always shot model 12's (or a 21 if he was feeling fancy).

When it came time to get me my first shotgun, it was an 870LW 20 gauge. The model 12's had gotten pricey, and the ease of interchanging parts (barrels and stocks mainly) made the 870 (which I will add, were GREAT guns back then) a better choice, even to a Winchester man. I took the 21" barrel and youth stock off and put on a 26" Remchoke barrel with a standard stock and had a dove gun that I still occasionally use.

After that we got several more 870's. First a 2 3/4 12 gauge for ducks, then 3" guns when we were forced to go to steel shot. Back then a new Wingmaster was $300.

So let's not say I don't like Remington....I do. I don't like what the corporate raiders of Cerberus Management did to Remington, and to Marlin.

Let's remember the title of this thread, and the fact that the original poster said "I know that Remington quality on Marlin has been very poor since they bought the company." Again, this is common knowledge. Marlins nowadays are garbage compared to what they were 50 years ago.

There's a thread over on the Marlin board specifically pointing out the garbage that Marlin put out after the Cerberus takeover, and someone here actually said, and I quote [i]"Actually, no-- Marlin product has never been better. Most of the old Marlin line made by Marlin was made without production prints, on old beat-up tooling. Current Marlin lever guns are a big step up."[/i] in response to the original poster's statement of

This is not only false, but it's laughable. It's the equivalent of "I'm from the government and I'm here to help"

To be clear, I like Remingtons. Every time I go to the field I am carrying a Remington. That said, I'm not going to be blind to what Cerberus did to Remington, and "Remlins". Too many guns need "to be cleaned"....."broken in".......or even "send it back and Remington will make it right".

Does that mean they're unserviceable? No. It doesn't. But 30 years ago it wasn't common to have to MONKEY WITH A REMINGTON TO MAKE IT WORK OUT OF THE BOX. Now you do. To me that is a clear issue that some here seem to be blind to.

And again, for those who want to say Remlins are just find and dandy, I'll just again refer to this. These guys love Marlins. But ALL of these problems don't mean there's a problem, right?

https://www.marlinowners.com/forum/sear ... d=11208301


I like Remingtons. I like Marlin levers (Dad has pre 64 94's and 71's, my levers are ALL Marlins), but I am thoroughly disgusted with what these slimebag corporate raiders did to these great American companies.

I remember back in the day when "Gun Tests" came out. At that time you would rarely see a gun writer say anything bad about a gun. "Gun Tests" didn't shy away from not only bringing up the good characteristics of a gun, but would also point out the shortcomings and quality control issues.

I guess if you're a writer, and you're getting guns and gear from the company, probably have a few friends in the marketing department, then it's in your best interest to only write glowing reviews. Now in the days of the interwebs that's become a lot harder because when people get, for example, a gun with the barrel not screwed in all the way, they write about it on an online forum where everyone can read about it.

https://www.marlinowners.com/forum/marl ... 895cb.html

So there you have it. Didn't change your mind? It's your money, and your decision on how to spend it. If you think Remingtons are a great value, quality gun, buy them! The original poster asked a question, and several of us gave our opinions. Wonder what he ended up doing ?

Lastly, if you see my username, I have Jeep CJ's. They rust if it rains, the electrical systems make Lucas look reliable, carburetors and emissions systems define the description of "Rube Goldberg", but I like them. If someone asks I certainly won't say they are well made, reliable vehicles, but I like them. That's ok. It's a free country.


Last edited by Jeepwm69 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:08 pm 
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lossking wrote:
I think any reasonable person would agree that the average run of the mill shotgun is not made with the same attention to detail as in the past. Manufacturers' bottom line versus always rising costs coupled with mass production does not always result in a superior product as Winchester proved in 1964.


Exactly. Remington and Marlin made good stuff long after most of the other big brands had slipped.

Smith and Wesson fell off in the early-mid 70's, Colt around the same time. People talk about "Pre 64" Winchesters, but even the early 60's guns before the change tended to be a little sloppier than those made in the late 50's.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:38 pm 
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I love old Winchester’s.....but they were hardly the pinnacle of gunmaking then.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:41 am 
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Rooster booster wrote:
I love old Winchester’s.....but they were hardly the pinnacle of gunmaking then.


I'd bet a lot fewer of the new ones went back to New Haven then than go back to Arnold, MO today.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:46 am 
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Maybe......and as I said, I love old Winchester’s of almost any flavor.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:21 am 
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StanofKansas wrote:
Late for this one, but I agree with Randy on this.

I personally own several Remington shotguns. I can say without bias that the new ones I own are far more reliable and better made. That might sound crazy, but this is coming from someone who approached new Remington products with the same skepticism that is so shamelessly circulated by people who are biased agains the company in its current state, for whatever reason.

I can absolutely understand the nostalgia factor involved with older Remingtons. It's totally understandable - gun carry great nostalgic value for a lot of people. But speaking from personal experience, I have absolutely no doubt saying that the new Remington products are, if not drastically better than, just as good as their predecessors.

To get on topic of the thread, however -

The 1100 you really cannot go wrong with, old or new. Just be sure to keep a few O-rings handy and you'll be glad you made that decision. It's a heavier gun and definitely more of a clays gun, but an outstanding choice nonetheless. It's the most popular gas gun of all time for a reason.

The 1187 I cannot speak from experience on as I don't have one, but I have heard from multiple people that while they are heavy for a field gun they are extremely reliable.


The topic of the thread passed away in October of 2019. :oops:

There are 'legacy costs' . . . both good and bad. The good is the brand recognition. The bad is that humans have a problem being accurate with memories and experiences. It is the cloud of nostalgia.

Some constantly gripe and carp about the price of a shotgun. Yet, the shotgun itself is by far the cheapest part of shooting and hunting by a huge margin. Expired tags and broken clays have no residual value.

Remington has produced and sold far more shotguns in the U.S. than any other manufacturer. No one else is close. When you ask for something long enough and loud enough, don't be surprised if that is what you get. So it is with lower grade walnut and matte finishes: that is called "affordable." The consumer votes for cheap every year. Of course, they get it . . . exactly what they wanted. That is the quality of the finish and the walnut, but not the quality of the gun.

The companies that refused to listen to the buying public long ago ceased operations. Is anyone really surprised?

Enjoy the "I Love MY Remington" forum. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:43 am 
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The problems involved with Remington buying and moving Marlin lever gun production is well documented. Both sides contributed to that issue. Marlin sold Remington a bill of goods and Remington did no favors by moving production.

Now it appears Remington has worked to fix a lot of those wrongs. I own a remlin and it was made in late 16. Wood is good for the price point and after slicking it up it functions well. I will admit it was lacking out of the box. I would buy another if I needed it. I would stick to production from 18 or newer as I have heard that they are even better. The days of hand fitting every gun are gone. To make any money today you need a design that can be cnc manufactured and assembled. Look at colt and the python.

I can’t compare it to a 70’s era jm as an out of the box version just doesn’t exist anymore. I feel like we all tend to look back at things with some pretty rose colored glasses. Look at 60’s muscle cars, if you have ridden in a relatively stock one recently, you will notice they are slow, don’t turn or stop well, and pretty rough by today’s standards.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:07 pm 
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I'd certainly buy a new Remlin, er I mean Marlin 444P.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:06 pm 
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Marlin quality has been coming back. I am considering either a 26" bbl .45-70 Model 1895 or a 24" bbl Model 1994 when they make one again.
I recently retired from gunsmithing and selling guns. I completely missed the big fall off in quality of Model 1100s and Wingmasters. Never saw it. Yes there was lots of bitching about Expresses, but it was made cheap for cheapos.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:28 pm 
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slotracer577 wrote:
The problems involved with Remington buying and moving Marlin lever gun production is well documented. Both sides contributed to that issue. Marlin sold Remington a bill of goods and Remington did no favors by moving production.


Well-documented where?

Remington hardly bought Marlin-- they were just acquired themselves and were in no position to buy a doughnut. The Kenna family wanted out of the firearms business.

On paper, the plan had great merit-- Cerberus wanted to greatly increase production efficiencies, efficiencies not possible by running plants in Maine, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. There were gremlins, however.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:45 pm 
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Virginian wrote:
Marlin quality has been coming back. I am considering either a 26" bbl .45-70 Model 1895 or a 24" bbl Model 1994 when they make one again.
I recently retired from gunsmithing and selling guns. I completely missed the big fall off in quality of Model 1100s and Wingmasters. Never saw it. Yes there was lots of bitching about Expresses, but it was made cheap for cheapos.


:lol: :lol: Considering the original purpose for which I bought mine, that would be me(a cheapo!). Little did I realize how pleasantly and somewhat admittedly surprised I`ve been with mine!

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:51 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
slotracer577 wrote:
The problems involved with Remington buying and moving Marlin lever gun production is well documented. Both sides contributed to that issue. Marlin sold Remington a bill of goods and Remington did no favors by moving production.


Well-documented where?



Randy, have you heard of Google?

Go there. Type in "Remlin Rant". You'll find lots and lots of documentation on how bad the quality control has been since Marlin was bought out by Cerberus.

Here's a link in case you're feeling lazy.

https://www.marlinowners.com/forum/marlin-rant-forum/

Of course, I've posted links. Perhaps you didn't see them, or perhaps you just pretend you didn't because the overwhelming evidence doesn't support your statement of Actually, no-- Marlin product has never been better. Most of the old Marlin line made by Marlin was made without production prints, on old beat-up tooling. Current Marlin lever guns are a big step up.

In fact, why don't you start a poll on whether Marlin quality has gone up or down since the buyout, over there on the Marlin board? See what kind of response you get.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:03 pm 
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From a former Marlin employee.....in that Remlin Rant forum.....

And to be clear, Remington was as much a victim as Marlin. Corporate raiders are to blame.

"One of the Marlin Owners Administrators has asked me to combine two of my recent posts pertaining the closure of Marlin in North Haven under the control of Cerberus and Remington.

I thought it might be a good thing to do, because of all the MIS-information I have read on this forum.

SO, LET ME BEGIN………….

Firstly, none of what I say here is said to damage or injure Remington………..They have done a wonderful job of that by themselves.

Let me first tell you all that I worked at Marlin in North Haven CT. from 2001 to 2010 as a Tool, Gage, and MFG Engineer, so I was there at the time of the initial acquisition, and I experienced all of the “changes” put in place by Remington.

I stayed with Marlin until about 5 months before the actual closure in April of 2011, when I had finished releasing the XT series Bolt Action Rimfire rifles to production, at which time I was no longer useful to Remington.

I had fulfilled my contractual agreement by staying on staff until I was no longer needed, and I retired out in November of 2010 with a separation package, after signing numerous non-compete, non-suit notarized legal documents.

Some Recent Marlin History:

When I joined Marlin in 2001, it was a family owned company with approximately 25 to 27 extended Kenna family member stock holders............Some men, some women, some young, some older, probably some minors. too...........

At that time, Marlin employed about 265 workers at the 2000-2006 time frame.....At one time marlin employed as many as 500-600 workers.......

Some employees had worked at Marlin for 35+ years....Whole families worked there................fathers ,mothers and their grown children.

The owner of Marlin Firearms, Frank Kenna Sr. was very loyal to, and protective of all his employees, and would rather cut overall company hours than lay one worker off........

He would come out into the Assembly area every morning, and a Gunsmith would show him a newly finished rifle that he was proud of building, and Frank would smile as he inspected it, hand it back and say, "Make'em all that way...

You'll NEVER see Frank’s kind of employer loyalty, ever again..........He kept some workers on staff, 'cuz he knew they needed their job, and would have difficulty finding another job.

I know that Frank Kenna Sr. helped some workers through personal hardships, without ever expecting any payback...

At this time, Frank Kenna Sr. was getting up in years, with health problems.........

About 2004/2006, the company was quietly put up for sale, because there was no one within the Kenna family that had both the desire and experience to step forward to take over the company............

Even throughout the sale negotiations with Cerberus/Remington, Frank Kenna Sr. was very concerned about the welfare of all his employee’s.

Frank's son, Frank Kenna Jr. was already running a successful electronic media news company called The Marlin Company.............Others in the family were all comfortably successful in other fields....

Due to these things, the company had been up for sale and Cerberus made a low ball offer to just to get negotiations started..............the rest is history.

The Acquisition and Closure

I recall Joe Gross, Remington's COO when asked "Why did they buy Marlin if they were going to close it ?" saying ..............."We viewed Marlin as low hanging fruit, and we knew that if we could just squeeze it a little harder, it would yield more juice"........or something such as that....

Well, that's exactly what Remington did............tried to squeeze all they could in the way of profits, with no regard for the product line, the Marlin name or reputation...........Quality fell by the wayside, as did the employees not only at Marlin, but at any other companies Remington acquired……….. Para, Dakota Arms, Bushmaster..........even their OWN employees!................

At Marlin, Remington demanded the new Marlin Assembly Cells produce 1 rifle every 135 seconds, and when that time was met, they reduced the time to run even faster....................I can't even clean any of my own firearms in that time........Those in the Assembly Cell workers could not leave to go to the rest rooms until a replacement for their station could be found.

The only failure during 2002-2006 and beyond, was Marlins inability to build enough rifles to satisfy the market demands. And that was the time frame that the XLR's, MX's and some Big Loop models were developed and released.

2003-2006 was the era when the 308MX and the 338MX cartridges were developed. It was a time when worker moral was at it's highest. It was a time when hourly paid MFG employees had almost unlimited overtime available to them. It was a time when Marlin offered rifles in many calibers, finishes and configurations............It was the time when ONE man built the entire rifle and signed it.

Throughout the 2000-2010 time frame, Marlin was a profitable family owned company that was never even close to bankruptcy when Remington acquired them...........The only reason Marlin was sold was because the owner and his heirs were getting older, and there was no younger family heir that wanted to take over the company.

Since the acquisition in 2008 and closure in 2011, Remington has spent over 70 Million Dollars on the Marlin product line, with all new machinery, and they still can't really offer much more than a basic 30-30.........and many of those basic rifles don't fit or function well.

Remington has stopped production of the Marlin Model 39 (the longest produced rimfire rifle model in the world) because they could not build them successfully.

Will Remington ever get the Marlin product line right?............... NO, but that answer comes not from me, but from INSIDE Remington today!

After over 70 million dollars and 10 years time, even Cerberus is getting tired of the failed product line, and the Red Ink........

I remember well, the proponent and creator of Marlin's closure, Remington COO Joe Gross telling us at the closure announcement meeting ......." These rifles are easy to build, they can be built anywhere, by anyone".............I recall Joe got fired for his "forward thinking" in that matter.

There has been a lot of fake information available in the media and in Gun Rags pertaining to Marlin and their problems, both then, and now...............

All of that info has come from Remington in their attempt and need to shift the blame and elevate themselves as the saviors of the Marlin name and product line.......It just ain't true.

Some here may doubt what I say , and why I have no regard for Remington or it's products.................but I've seen all these things and much more from the inside, that you have not.............you've only gotten the "Spoon Fed Spin" from the media, and Gun Rags, and all of that SPIN was created BY Remington, and edited BY Remington before it ever went to print..........

Marlin, under Remington in my opinion, is a company that does NOT have the interest of their customers, or the quality of their product line at the forefront of their Mission Statement............

Thanks for hearing me out……"


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:58 pm 
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That was quite a post of what equates to some justifiable sour grapes by former employees, more than any definitive or ‘documented’ cases of quality. Quite an axe your grinding......good luck.




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