Please don`t bother. This thing needs to die of old age, if nothing else.[/quote]

Thank you, Tide. [/quote]

Holy mackerel yes... the guy picked up 3 guns that will last the rest of his lifetime and those of several others for less that $800 and expects them to measure up to guns that would cost many times more in fit and finish...really? My clod hopper 870 has been in the bottom of a swamp, buried in mud, frozen solid in a freezing rain and it cycles and shoots just as well as my nice old 1963 Wingmaster..it's not as pretty but for the price of that gun my expectations of fit and finish are minimal. It does what I need it to do, shuck and shoot. That Rem could produce such a low cost product that works as well as it does is a direct reflection on how well they have responded to the markets needs. Let's hope they are still here another 100 years from now. Buy American and give them some respect. Those folks assembling those guns deserve our respect.
I should add, every time I use my 1187 Sporting Cays someone asks about it...it's fit and finish are on par with anything else on the market..and for a reasonable price to boot.

If Remington would show some respect for their market by building attractive and nicely finished guns i'd throw some money their way. Right now I see Italians putting passion and soul into their guns and that's where most of my money goes.

You can get that from Remington. It’s called the custom shop. And you can pay Italian prices for all that passion and soul from the Remington craftsmen

I guess the “Italian” guns I see the most are Benellis or Berettas...and theres not much craftsmanship, much less passion or soul in their sub $2K guns. There are some good, functional Italian guns in the general price range of an 1100, but none of them I’m familiar with is any higher quality, and I can’t think of a single one that costs what an 1187 does (though some of them appear to be just as cheaply built).

Bingo.
And since we are dragging everything we can think of into this, I'm still pissed that that Italian gun company got a huge influx of U.S. tax dollars to really get going in the United States thanks to a politically motivated switch to a NATO caliber service pistol. A move the military is still valiantly clawing their way back from.

I don`t know. I own several Remington guns, a couple of relatively recent vintage, and I don`t feel like I`ve been " disrespected " in any way, shape, or fashion by Remington. They all do precisely what I intend for them to do, haven`t broken, and don`t rattle. For working field guns, I think they look OK too! But that`s just me.

While my Fabarm ( Italian) L4S IH is indeed a finely made and excellently functioning gun ( also significantly more expensive than what I paid for any of my Remingtons ), for some reason I`ve never attributed " passion" and "soul " to it. I suppose that simply means that I`m insufficiently romantic when it comes to the inherent qualities and characteristics of an inanimate object. Well, with notable exceeptions for such things as The David, Mona Lisa, Pieta, etc., etc.

They need to put a little more passion and soul into the wood finish on their 686 Silver Pigeon 1 models. Yeah, I know, it's an entry level gun, a $2,000 one. Remington whoops their azz in the stock finish department, and equals or exceeds the SP1s' metal finish on several models, at half the price or less.

Market forces are always what determines what a manufacturer will build. If people are willing to pay for finely finished guns; then the makers will build such. However, as we have all witnessed here on SW and elsewhere; most folks are willing to accept (some prefer) much easier to produce and therefore cheaper finishes, in order to keep the selling price lower. For example the plastic stocks that are so prevalent today and matte finished barrels are what buyers are willing to pay.

All very elementary but the name of the game is dictated by what sells. As was indicated by Casonet, the Custom Shop of Remington can still turn out some very finely finished firearms. However, don't expect to pay typical 1100/11-87 prices for them. That is unrealistic.

As for the passion and soul displayed in Italian guns, I think you are currently seeing that start to be challenged by what is being produced in Turkey. I would not be surprised if Turkish made and branded guns don't become more commonplace when compared to the average Italian made gun. For example, a reliable and better finished entry level O/U with some nice wood and checkering priced to sell against the Beretta SP series I think would find a ready market once the fear of new Turkish products is overcome.

I think the FABARM semi autos are the nicest finished semi autos on the market today. IMO far nicer than the comparable Beretta & Benelli models I have seen. I have owned two FABARMS and a Remington V3.

I now only own the V3 obviously not because of its finish. However, I really appreciate its superior mechanical design and function.

Fabarms had nicer finished guns years ago with the Lion series. Same 'tri bore' barrel business but very pretty wood. They did a thing with a contrasting wood grip cap (olive wood iirc) that was beautiful. The new stuff is gaudy IMO. Although that does seem to be the trend as with the smurf gun and the fake carbon fiber benelli.

" IMO ". Pretty much sums up just about all of this, doesn`t it?

The older pre-Fabarm USA sporting clays guns indeed had nice real wood on them and not enhanced Triwood. They pop when you redo the factory finish. But they also had fake carbon fiber. Still a nice looking gun though. Don’t be afraid of the HK Fabarm imports. Good value for the money. Fabarm USA will not honor the HK lifetime warranty (neither will HK) but will support them if parts or work needed at current labor rates.



https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... lit=Fabarm

Actually no, I picked up FOUR 11-87's. 3 were at $249, and one was $124. Again, they were worth what I paid for them. They are NOT worth anywhere close to what Remington wants for them. Those prices were 50 and 75% off.... ALL of them need work to be serviceable. They all felt like they'd been in the bottom of a swamp, buried in mud, frozen solid in a freezing rain but they haven't been. They are brand new guns. But again, these are not the high end guns. I understand that. These are beaters, which I bought for the wife and kids to use hunting to they don't beat up my nice guns. Even so, while an express has never been a "nice" gun, the old ones at least worked without having the customer do all of the finish work on the internals.

But the new express guns DON'T work. Tons of them are being sent back for work, utilizing Remingtons "excellent customer service" How many problems have we seen on guns that rust, even when kept oiled, and that won't eject shells, etc etc.

All of that said, comparing a Wingmaster to an Express is comparing apples to oranges, Cadillac to Chevy, etc etc. I don't expect an Express to be pretty, but I expect it to function, and I expect it to function without me having to disassemble it and polish all the mating surfaces, and I expect it to not rust sitting in a closet with a coating of oil on it. Would you buy a new lower end Chevy and be ok with peeling paint and driveline noises?

I would expect a Wingmaster grade gun to have excellent fit and finish. Some do, some don't. Just like some of the Remlins are fine, and some aren't. Cerberus' business model is more concerned about pumping out units than they are about the quality of those units. Their business practices lend to guns that should have been sent back around for cleaning up/ tweaking (and more likely WOULD HAVE BEEN, pre Cerberus) but those are instead being boxed up and shipped.



I hope Remington is still here too. I hope they turn things around, much like Smith and Wesson did, at least to some degree, after the abysmal quality control issues in the 80's. The newer guns still didn't compare to those from the 60's, but they DID get better again when people started buying older guns and leaving the current production stuff sitting on the shelf (nobody wanted anything that wasn't pinned and recessed, as the cessation of those features was perceived as approximately when quality when in the crapper (in reality the later pinned/recessed guns were iffy too).

The guys assembling the guns at Remington are doing what they're told. The problem is the bean counters who don't care if a stock fits perfectly as long as X number of guns are finished per day.

Again, I'm pickier than most, and there are perfectly fine Remington guns coming off the line every day, but they're also letting more than a few slip through that IMO shouldn't be, and I'm not going to shrug and say it isn't happening. I'm not blind due to brand loyalty. I'll say it again.... there are good ones, but you better look at them really closely before you buy. I might try to handpick a Wingmaster were I in the market, but more likely would just buy an older NIB or mint gun. I would order an older gun online. I wouldn't buy a newer one without being able to closely inspect it in person.

I wouldn't buy an express at all unless they were HEAVILY discounted (the 11-87's I bought obviously were). Heck the 870 "Pardner" copies function as well as the hit-or-miss express guns do these days.....If you don't care about fit/finish and only care about function, the Chinese copies are just as smooth as an express.

Wow. This being cooped up is affecting some more than others it seems.....

It do.

I’d buy a new wingmaster or 1100 without hesitation. I’d buy an Express if I only had a couple hundred to spend on a gun and needed a dependable, do anything pump capable of shooting steel. The 1187 I owned was flawless, but I wouldn’t buy another. The V3 is too good, and about the same price.

I’ve been very pleased with my 870 Express. Bought it on a whim on Gunbroker as a backup and foul weather gun. It’s performed so well that now it competes for time with my SA’s!

I am in no way trying to self-agrandize with this. I remember on my last NSCA shoot I shot my 870 Express for fun that was made last year. 77/100, tied for first place amongst all shooters below A Class, many of whom were shooting guns that were probably ten times as expensive.

Moral of the story - if it's a $300 gun that fits you, it's better than a $3000 gun that doesn't.

Also, I will mention, not a single malfunction.

I just purchased a new Remington 1100 28ga sporter and I'm impressed. Shocked, but impressed. I currently shoot a new Perazzi High Tech, a 40 yr old TM1, a Beretta DT10 and a Beretta SO4 so I'm kind of familiar with quality guns. I am shooting low gun skeet tomorrow and will not be using my DT10 Intl skeet gun but will use the 1100 because it is a hoot to shoot and functions flawlessly. The wood is very nice and the fit and finish is fine. The fit of the recoil pad leaves something to be desired but all in all, I'm impressed.

28s are a hoot no matter the brand!

So figured I share this on here I bought a Don Talbot engraved Remington 700 Grade IV last year and it has been at the Remington Custom Shop since getting reworked with a few upgrades. Since I had a exhibition blank of American Black I'm re-stocking the rifle and re-barreling it since a 416 mag is not going to work. With the left over stock I will build a 700 Grade II out of it and end up with 2 700 high grades.

gold inlay floor plate
24" barrel chambered in 7mm mag
high polished blue
classic straight comb stock
shadowline cheek piece
engraved skeleton buttplate & gripcap
fluer-de-lis checkering
oil finish