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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:45 am
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My pair, after a couple years use:

Image
Image

I do woodworking, as well as metal working. I appreciate fit and finish.




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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
Posts: 200
Tidefanatic wrote:
Jeep, this is just a curiosity question and in no way meant to be snarky, but is there any gun out there ( well, that`s in the price range of us peasants in the proletariat ) that you would not feel compelled to disassemble to the molecular level for evaluation prior to purchase :D ?


Eh, probably not these days. Not without really checking it over.

Back in the 80's I'd order a Remington from Zanders or Jerry's and never got one I wasn't happy with. I know Remington still makes SOME good guns, but I wouldn't buy a new one now without looking it over closely.

As I said earlier, Remington and Marlin held their standards up long after most of the other big manufacturers started letting cost cutting measures cut into the quality of their products. I wouldn't buy a Colt or Smith and Wesson made after the mid 70's without going over it with a magnifying glass, or a Winchester made after the late 50's, so for those who think I have some sort of anti Remington thing going, keep that in mind.

That said, there are a LOT of documented problems with the newer guns, so probably wouldn't buy much of anything without thoroughly checking it over, unless it was just too cheap to pass up, as these 11-87's were this fall.

If you find a Remington and can look it over in person and it looks good, go for it.

Just make sure you look it over.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
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McFarmer wrote:
My pair, after a couple years use:

Image
Image

I do woodworking, as well as metal working. I appreciate fit and finish.


Pretty wood. I will say the one major drawback of the early Remingtons vs the modern stocks was the stamped checkering and white spacers.

The good thing about Remingtons is that good wood is easy to find and fairly cheap. I loaded up with the Remington Country Store closed out a bunch of Claro walnut stocks and realwood stocks a few years back. Got some nice stocks from Numrich as well.

One of my early 90's Wingmasters came with a beautiful stock with lots of fiddleback, and I loaned it out, guy sank the boat with my gun in it, and while I recovered the gun, the stock split from being submerged and then dried out.

Picked up some pretty Marlin wood from Numrich too. Century limited wood really dresses up a Marlin.

That said, if any lesson was learned from Greg Warne, pretty wood alone does not a quality gun make.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:56 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
McFarmer wrote:
I’ve got a Classic 1100 and a Classic 870, both in 20ga. I’ve never had nicer shotguns, granted I’ve never had real high end shotguns but I do have older 1100s and 870s.


The Remington 870 200th Anniversary Pump Shotgun is my favorite of the group, though the 870 Classic 20 gets more field time.

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Pretty wood. I bought a set of Claro to use on my early 80's 870LW Wingmaster. Really dressed it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:31 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:38 pm 
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My experience mirrors Jeepwm69 almost exactly. Is Remington better than they were 10 -15 yrs ago.... probably. Are they better than they were 25-30 years ago.... nope. One question, how many would buy a nib 1100 or 870 made in the late 70’s and get it for the same price as current manufacture? Or how many would swap straight up?
Buy what you like, but I’ll stick with the older ones. Who knows, I may eventually wear out my old one , then I’ll see where we’re at. Heck, at the rate the politicians are going at it, might not have to worry about it one way or the other too many more years.
And yes “ I love my Remington “


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:20 pm 
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Location: Soldotna, Alaska
Remington is my favorite shotgun manufacturer. Their best guns were made when they were owned by DuPont. I still wouldn’t hesitate to buy one of their new higher end shotguns.


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 Post subject: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:12 am 
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I prefer the older ones. Why? Certainly it’s not a quality issue. The current production probably has closer tolerances and tighter control than 40 years ago. That’s a benefit of technology. I like the older ones because of the RKW finish on the stocks, the white line spacers, the roll stamp engraving on the receiver and other minute details. It has nothing to do with the function of the gun. My hands down favorites are the Skeet T models of the ‘70s and ‘80s. That cut checker and highly figured walnut with that RKW finish is in my opinion better looking that any of the production models today with dark, satin finished wood. They all shoot the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:49 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:07 am
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Jeepwm69 wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Marlin Mike wrote:
I am going to buy my grandson a new 20 gauge auto this weekend. I have always owned owned 1100's. I know that Remington quality on Marlin has been very poor since they bought the company.


Actually, no-- Marlin product has never been better. Most of the old Marlin line made by Marling was made without production prints, on old beat-up tooling. Current Marlin lever guns are a big step up.


Negative. I have a Remlin 1895 and my old Marlins from the 70's are MUCH better guns. Fix, finish, function are ALL better on the older guns. Freedom group is not a good thing.

My Remingtons from the 70's and 80's are much better than the current production too. I have purchased 4 11-87s and an 870 in the last two years. I would not have considered them if I didn't get absurdly low prices on them.

Let me help out..... your Remington’s from the 70s and 80’s are better than The new Expresses today, they are NOT better than a new Wingmasters. I own multiple Wingmasters from the 50’s,60’s,70’s, a Sportsman from ‘86, and an ‘05. Truth be told the 2005 is without question the very best of the lot.
I also own a 2005 11-87 Premier and once again it is as good or BETTER than any older 1100 I have ever owned.
You come across as the guy who wants compare a $200 gun or cheapest thing you can find against a former top of the line product. Go buy a new $700-$1000 Wingmaster/1100 and compare them to the antiques your results will be different.
I speak from experience building these things on a routine basis and shooting competitively weekly. I don’t cruise Wal-Mart Rollback/Clearance specials and make false claims on the internet.
As for Marlin’s I can’t comment I only own two, 1 from the 60’s and 1 from 2007 and the both function flawlessly.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:23 am 
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`05 must have been a good year for Remington! My `05 870 Super Mag SP-T is as solid a gun as you could want. The thing`s like a tank. I have no problem believing that the earlier 870s were/are better guns than today`s Express models. Having said that, I knew exactly what I was getting with mine and why I was getting it ( back up/rain gun ). I have been extremely pleased with my `15 870 Express, admittedly perhaps a bit surprisingly so. Action is smooth and I actually shoot the thing pretty well to boot. Threw a sling on it to go with its after market camo stocks and its ready for the dove field or casual clays!

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:46 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
Posts: 200
Germansheperd wrote:
jeepwm69 wrote:

Negative. I have a Remlin 1895 and my old Marlins from the 70's are MUCH better guns. Fix, finish, function are ALL better on the older guns. Freedom group is not a good thing.

My Remingtons from the 70's and 80's are much better than the current production too. I have purchased 4 11-87s and an 870 in the last two years. I would not have considered them if I didn't get absurdly low prices on them.


Let me help out..... your Remington’s from the 70s and 80’s are better than The new Expresses today, they are NOT better than a new Wingmasters. I own multiple Wingmasters from the 50’s,60’s,70’s, a Sportsman from ‘86, and an ‘05. Truth be told the 2005 is without question the very best of the lot.
I also own a 2005 11-87 Premier and once again it is as good or BETTER than any older 1100 I have ever owned.
You come across as the guy who wants compare a $200 gun or cheapest thing you can find against a former top of the line product. Go buy a new $700-$1000 Wingmaster/1100 and compare them to the antiques your results will be different.
I speak from experience building these things on a routine basis and shooting competitively weekly. I don’t cruise Wal-Mart Rollback/Clearance specials and make false claims on the internet.
As for Marlin’s I can’t comment I only own two, 1 from the 60’s and 1 from 2007 and the both function flawlessly.



Your 2005 guns were made prior to Cerberus buying Remington (2007) and running the company into the ground, so your claims of "new" are based on 15 year old guns and are in fact, not the newer Remingtons, but the older pre-Cerberus guns.

From the examples I've looked at and shot, and from what I've seen on the shooting boards, quality bottomed out 5-6 years ago, and has gotten slightly better since but still is nowhere near what it was pre-Cerberus.

You can watch the "craftsman" assemble the "top of the line" 870 in the video Randy posted. I would think for a "top of the line" gun, that more than 20 minutes would have been taken to find the BEST fit of parts, rather than "That one's a little tight....that one works...on to the next step". We all know a benefit of the Remington designs is the fact that parts interchange fairly easily (as opposed to say, a Winchester Model 12), but for an almost $2K "top of the line" gun I would expect a little more time to be spent fitting parts, rather than "close enough" with a shiny finish and pretty wood (that was simply thrown on, rather than "fitted" as one would expect on a gun that price point).

And again, my point on the 11-87's I recently purchased was to point out that the fit and finish is very low GIVEN THE PRICE POINT. MSRP on these guns was about $600. I can find a NICE older 11-87 that has much better fit and finish at that price range. At the price I paid I can clean them up so I wasn't especially picky about it, but at MSRP they aren't worth it, especially when you can find an older pre-Cerberus 11-87 or 1100 that would be a better gun, for less money. Not like these are rare guns.

The problem I have is I am answering the question that the original poster asked. You didn't. You threw out some information that wasn't even pertinent to the question asked.

"I know that Remington quality on Marlin has been very poor since they bought the company. Has this carried over to the 1100/1187 line as well or has the reliability and quality been maintained? I have not bought a new Remington in over 20 years so thanks for any responses."

He's asking if Cerberus (again, 2007) screwed up Remington like they screwed up Marlin. Yes, they absolutely did, and one can do a simple google search and see the spike in problems people had with both brands after the buyout.

You answered with "My 2005 guns are great so the newer guns are better than the older guns".


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:06 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
Posts: 200
I will say, I bought 870's in the late 80's, early 90's, and then didn't buy anymore until the Cerberus fiasco, so late 90's-early 2000's may have been great.

I didn't start seeing problems with guns until the Cerberus buyout, and the ones that I've purchased didn't impress me, but again, were serviceable for hunting beaters and were too cheap to pass up. I can let the kids beat these around rather than ding up my earlier guns.

Saw a big uptick in problem Remingtons in the dove fields and in the duck blinds during Cerberus, including the shiny ones. Cerberus gutted the company. That's what they did to every company they touched.

Cerberus "ran" the company up into 2018 when bankruptcy handed the keys over to creditors.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/03/busi ... er-11.html

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Rem ... 5-2095478/

The comments in that ARF link are telling......


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:34 pm 
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People have spectacular imaginations . . . as if the Remington 105 CTi (designed and released pre-Cerberus) was anything but a tragic disaster.

Remington shotguns are all made in Ilion, NY, in the same plant by the same employees, to the same specs on the same machines. It is nutty to think that there was ever any change in the way 1100s / 11-87s, or 870s have been made. There hasn't been, except the barrels are made from stronger steel.

One of the best actions and best shotguns for the money is the V3, and that shotgun was designed and released under the imaginary Cerberus "Reign of Terror. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
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RandyWakeman wrote:
People have spectacular imaginations . . . as if the Remington 105 CTi (designed and released pre-Cerberus) was anything but a tragic disaster.

Remington shotguns are all made in Ilion, NY, in the same plant by the same employees, to the same specs on the same machines. It is nutty to think that there was ever any change in the way 1100s / 11-87s, or 870s have been made. There hasn't been, except the barrels are made from stronger steel.

One of the best actions and best shotguns for the money is the V3, and that shotgun was designed and released under the imaginary Cerberus "Reign of Terror. :shock:


RandyWakeman wrote:

Actually, no-- Marlin product has never been better. Most of the old Marlin line made by Marling was made without production prints, on old beat-up tooling. Current Marlin lever guns are a big step up.



RandyWakeman wrote:

Cerberus / Freedom group no longer exists. It is, and has been "Remington Outdoor Company" for a while. https://www.remingtonoutdoorcompany.com/ .


I'm starting to wonder if you're on their payroll Randy. Remington Outdoor Company was owned by Cerberus until well into 2018, and only changed due to bankruptcy (the creditors got the company). Cerberus gutted every company they touched. They took on massive amounts of debt, cut costs everywhere, and bankrupted what was a great American company (several of them, actually).

They weren't made "in the same plant, by the same employees". A snip from that thread on ARF.

From 2009-2013 I worked for Remington/Freedom Group.

The management we got in after Nardelli was almost solely from Toyota and didn't know anything about firearms. It was purely mate part A with part B and use a temp agency to find your employees.

Turnover increased, upward mobility was stifled, and the emphasis was placed on reducing costs over anything else (namely R&D). I worked with other employees from Remington, AAC, and Tapco and Freedom Group went in and installed their guys anywhere they could. It was almost ripped from Atlas Shrugged: The guys who had been there for awhile and understood how the production process was being run would quit and we'd replace them with guys who could spout off every Six Sigma buzzword but didn't know the first thing about actually managing people and making parts.


The NYT article I linked up the page a bit repeats the "hire temps to save money" aspect.

When you get rid of your high salary skilled/ experienced workers to save a buck, the quality of your product will decline.

From Thehighroad in 2010

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?t ... ty.514217/

It boils down to the fact the Remington was once THE firearms manufacturer! When Savage and later, Winchester took the proverbial dive into the netherworld of shoddily produced product, the world shuddered.
What are we to do now, they(Remington) was the only manufacturer that was producing decent enough sporting firearms for the time! Oh my!

Like all companies, Remington has hit a low spot in the quality of product they produce currently, does this mean that the company known as Remington Arms is poo poo, not at all, what it does mean, is that right now,they are not offering the quality that we all have grown to expect from them. This may or may not be from their new owners directives concerning the way the company is doing business, employee moral, material quality and so on.....

Folks on this and other forums are quick to pin the hate hat on anybody that does not sing praises to their beloved company, be that company good, or bad, be it an automobile manufacturer, a coffee maker manufacturer or a firearm manufacturer, whatever! I can go on the record as saying that, I love Remington, and wish they would return to producing product like they did in days gone bye, but sadly, I don't expect this from Cerberus.

Remington does indeed have their problems right now, but is this seen from younger folks whom have grown up with the current quality of products in the world today, or is it just noticed from the folks that have grown up with Remington, own many firearms produced by them from days of old that exhibit awesome quality and accuracy, these are the people yelling the loudest concerning Remingtons downfall, we/they know what Remington is capable of, and we do not like what we see now.

Is this totally the employees fault, management...? or has the corporate giant Cerberus dictated the end result?

Once Savage and Winchester firearms were not worth crossing the street to get one for free, now, well now, Savage is building one of the very finest mass produced rifle lines in the market today, and FNH/Winchester is well on their way to this level of quality also, some would say they are already there!

Remingtons have their problems, from manufacturing and material shortfalls to less than enthusiastic customer service to upper management that will tell you they don't give a fat rats azz what the public thinks of them...we are what we are, and that, my friend, is that!

Remingtons are not ALL bad, we still sell them regularly, returns are steep but none the less, they are still going out the door, even if the price is waaaaay too high for the various rifle models along with some of the shotguns! As for me, I can't comfortably buy a Remington with the price they ask for one, knowing the quality and how some of their employees have been treated.



https://thefederalist.com/2018/03/28/no ... trol-push/

Anyone who doesn't know what Cerberus does to companies has been living under a rock.

Hopefully Remington will come back strong now that the bottomfeeders lost the company, but God knows they did some damage to the brand while they had it.

https://www.guns.com/news/2015/09/23/3- ... on-anymore

C'mon guys, it's not like I'm making this up. This has been common knowledge to anyone who shoots for years.

The only question is, will Remington turn it around, and if so, how long will it take.

Cerberus was a cancer. It's gone now, but was the damage done critical? Hopefully no.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:11 pm 
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For those who believe that Remington must still “ turn it around “, what will “ turning it around” look like? What will be the hallmarks? If turning it around is linked to product quality, how can one know if one has vowed to not buy a new Remington gun? How can they know?

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
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Tidefanatic wrote:
For those who believe that Remington must still “ turn it around “, what will “ turning it around” look like? What will be the hallmarks? If turning it around is linked to product quality, how can one know if one has vowed to not buy a new Remington gun? How can they know?


That's a good question.

At this point there aren't really any scatterguns I "need", so not a big issue for me personally.

Let's face it, the shooting community is pretty close knit. Back in the 80's with Smith and Wesson's quality control went to crap, people talked about it, and when things got better, people talked about that too.

Cerberus is gone at this point, so the most important, first step is done.

The trend in what I've seem from Marlin seems to be getting better. Still not JM days, but better. The number of complaints I'm seeing and hearing about Remington seem to be getting less frequent. Current production might be fine, or what you get now might be left over "iffy" Cerberus era guns like the ones I got.

As I've repeatedly said in this thread, look anything you buy over very closely. The new guarantee from Remington is nice...if they stand behind it. Let's just say at my age I've seen too many "lifetime" warranties that go away, or are changed frequently to be worth nothing (Eddie Bauer and Oakley to name two off the top of my head).

A lot of people who complain about Remingtons have a beef with the "old designs that haven't changed in X years". To me that's a good thing. If a design works, leave it alone!


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:28 pm 
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When you lose the guys who have been making these things for years, even if you bring in young, skilled, hardworking replacements, they don't have the experience. That's where mismanagement will kill a company. Lay off your old skilled guys and bring in cheap labor, and then everyone's surprised when the quality control drops off.

I'd be curious to see what the company has done as far as change management since the bankruptcy.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Tidefanatic wrote:
For those who believe that Remington must still “ turn it around “, what will “ turning it around” look like? What will be the hallmarks? If turning it around is linked to product quality, how can one know if one has vowed to not buy a new Remington gun? How can they know?



Great question indeed.

So many areas for them to compete...hunting shotguns, target shotguns, hunting rifles, etc


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:55 am 
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Just what is the definition of 'quality'? The vast majority of consumers want cheap and that is what they buy. Over and over again, the voice of the people votes for 'CHEAP.' It should surprise no one that cheap is what is offered.

Is the Ruger American a high quality rifle? A Savage Axis? Essentially unfinished guns do the big numbers. No one was ever forced to buy an Express vs. a Wingmaster, but that is what most people buy-- overwhelmingly.

Take a look at a Beretta 686. Every year, cheaper wood, cheaper engraving, cheaper finishes. Or, an A400 . . . plastic and fake wood.

Or, Browning.

Image

The current BPS is cratewood and matte.

Image

The 'Silver' . . . cheap and ugly at $1099. The faded image of John M. Browning won't help it.

You can call it "entry-level," "affordable," "wallet-friendly" or whatever you want. It is still cheap, cobby, cheezy, tin-can, crate-wood from Portugal. There used to be certain minimum standards to have the 'Browning' or 'Beretta' nameplates. Those days are gone... long gone.

You can call it polymer, technopolymer, or composite . . . it is still cheap plastic, and people apparently love it, love it, and can't get enough of it. :roll: Manufacturers are forced to make what people actually buy.

You can buy a Honda Ridgeline for $29,990 MSRP, or for $43,320 MSRP. Same vehicle, same frame, same engine, transmission, same cab, etc. It is just the trim level you want.



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