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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:10 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:16 am
Posts: 33
RandyWakeman wrote:
MCzar777 wrote:
I was in the middle of a Duck/Goose Hunt this morning when my ~1 year old VMax’s bolt broke in two places. I’m not sure if it was a gun issue or if it was caused by the ammo but it ran fine all morning and I had put about half a box of Boss 3” #2 through it + 3 Fiocchi 3.5” #2s.

I’ve shot exactly 61 boxes of shells in it without a single issue and I clean it after every use.


By what theory could it possibly be anything but the ammo?


None that I can think of. I just wonder what could’ve been wrong with the ammo to cause the damage?




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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:16 am 
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MCzar777 wrote:
I just wonder what could’ve been wrong with the ammo to cause the damage?


Defective hull, defective cap, defective wad, bad powder charge, defective crimp of cap to hull . . . or, any combination of the above.

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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:22 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
MCzar777 wrote:
I just wonder what could’ve been wrong with the ammo to cause the damage?


Defective hull, defective cap, defective wad, bad powder charge, defective crimp of cap to hull . . . or, any combination of the above.


I suppose so. Regardless of how this turns out for me, I just hope that they pull that lot of ammo off the shelf (assuming that’s the issue) before someone actually gets hurt.


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:38 am 
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Five consecutive case-head separations from Kent ammo. Kent's answer was a defective crimp of the cap to the hull, from their vendor . . . Cheddite.


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:16 am
Posts: 33
***UPDATE***
I just got off the phone with Remington and they’ve decided to replace the bolt head and bolt handle under warranty. They test fired the gun and have deemed it repaired and safe for use.

I’m surprised that they decided to repair the gun given the overpressure situation (their exact words) that caused the bolt head to have the locking lugs sheared completely off. Don’t get me wrong, I’m grateful that they covered the repairs at no cost, but I’m curious as to how that’s all they had to do in order to consider it repaired and safe to shoot given the damage to the receiver.

When I sent the gun in, I could twist the barrel and the receiver opposite of each other by almost 2mm. Additionally, the top of the rib was no longer lined up with the top of the receiver after the damage had occurred.

After I took the gun apart and saw that there was material missing from inside of the receiver (where the gas pistons seat), I assumed that was the reason why the barrel and the receiver had the new found play between them. Needless to say, I’m anxious to see if the play between the barrel and the receiver is still there.

Once the gun comes back, I’m going to look it over with my Gunsmith and get his opinion on the remedied situation. That being said, if the play still exists, I will not be shooting the gun again (especially with 3” or 3.5” shells) as I have a hard time trusting it to hold together given the abuse that it has taken. Thoughts on this?


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:52 pm 
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MCzar777 wrote:
I’m surprised that they decided to repair the gun given the overpressure situation (their exact words) that caused the bolt head to have the locking lugs sheared completely off. Don’t get me wrong, I’m grateful that they covered the repairs at no cost, but I’m curious as to how that’s all they had to do in order to consider it repaired and safe to shoot given the damage to the receiver.


Why didn't you ask Remington when you were on the phone with them? What gunsmith claims to know more about the Versa Max than Remington Arms Service?

Even though there is no evidence it was anything but the ammo, Remington took care of it . . . which they hardly had to do. There is no way they would possibly ship the gun back to you if there was any suspicion whatsoever there was any issue with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:13 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
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Remington did not take care of it. The chamber saw the same pressure that sheared off the bolt locking lugs so the barrel should have been replaced as well.

Should you decide to get rid of it, don't pawn it off on some unsuspecting person without full disclosure of what that gun has been through.

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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
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Location: Western Tampa, FL
I am certainly no expert, but I have a hard time believing that in today's litigious society; any manufacturer would return a product if they thought it was still weakened and could fail. IMO, that would expose them to huge potential liability.


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:16 am
Posts: 33
RandyWakeman wrote:
MCzar777 wrote:
I’m surprised that they decided to repair the gun given the overpressure situation (their exact words) that caused the bolt head to have the locking lugs sheared completely off. Don’t get me wrong, I’m grateful that they covered the repairs at no cost, but I’m curious as to how that’s all they had to do in order to consider it repaired and safe to shoot given the damage to the receiver.


Why didn't you ask Remington when you were on the phone with them? What gunsmith claims to know more about the Versa Max than Remington Arms Service?

Even though there is no evidence it was anything but the ammo, Remington took care of it . . . which they hardly had to do. There is no way they would possibly ship the gun back to you if there was any suspicion whatsoever there was any issue with it.


I did ask and the service rep said that the technician didn’t see any other issue with the gun other than the bolt head so that’s why they only repaired that item along with the bolt handle. I’m not sure I follow your question “what Gunsmith claims to know about the Versa Max than Remington Arms Service?”

As I previously mentioned, I too am pleasantly surprised that Remington took care of it and that certainly exceeded my expectation. I also wouldn’t think that they would ship the gun back if there was still an issue with it and I’m looking forward to seeing it once it arrives.


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:16 am
Posts: 33
Zbigniew wrote:
Remington did not take care of it. The chamber saw the same pressure that sheared off the bolt locking lugs so the barrel should have been replaced as well.

Should you decide to get rid of it, don't pawn it off on some unsuspecting person without full disclosure of what that gun has been through.

I have no intention of doing that as I wouldn’t allow someone else to shoot a gun that I wasn’t comfortable shooting myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:16 am
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oyeme wrote:
I am certainly no expert, but I have a hard time believing that in today's litigious society; any manufacturer would return a product if they thought it was still weakened and could fail. IMO, that would expose them to huge potential liability.

I would certainly think the same given today’s society.


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:04 am
Posts: 1923
FWIW, allow me to add my doubts that Remington would send the gun back without a thorough inspection and most likely a function check. That`s particularly so considering the somewhat unique and potentially serious circumstances involved. Not just Remington, but ANY manufacturer would be derelict if they did not do so in similar circumstances with one of their guns.

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Browning B-80
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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:15 pm 
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I'm astounded they wouldn't just replace the gun, I can't imagine the exposure to liability to send back a gun that is known to have failed.

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Ian Smingler
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[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.webs.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:04 am
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Skeet_Man wrote:
I'm astounded they wouldn't just replace the gun, I can't imagine the exposure to liability to send back a gun that is known to have failed.


Are you expressing an opinion that the gun failed and not the ammunition? If so, what led you to that conclusion?

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Ithaca SKB Model 500
Browning B-80
Remington 870 Super Magnum Turkey
Remington V3 Walnut
Remington 870 Express (Realtree Xtra camo)


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:16 am
Posts: 33
Skeet_Man wrote:
I'm astounded they wouldn't just replace the gun, I can't imagine the exposure to liability to send back a gun that is known to have failed.

To be honest, I was expecting them to tell me to pound sand given that all along, they said that the reason why the gun broke was likely due to over-pressure caused by faulty ammunition.


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:16 am
Posts: 33
Tidefanatic wrote:
FWIW, allow me to add my doubts that Remington would send the gun back without a thorough inspection and most likely a function check. That`s particularly so considering the somewhat unique and potentially serious circumstances involved. Not just Remington, but ANY manufacturer would be derelict if they did not do so in similar circumstances with one of their guns.

The service rep told me that they inspected the gun, performed a function check, and fired it. I’m not surprised that it went bang and functioned properly due to the fact that when I sent the gun back, the bolt would still cycle, the safety still worked, and the gun clicked when I pulled the trigger after releasing the bolt using the bolt release.

I agree that any manufacturer would be derelict if they did not perform a thorough test before sending a firearm back to the owner after servicing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:45 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 4298
The question is whether the barrel was exposed to pressures exceeding a proof load and it obviously was, because a proof load won't shear off locking lugs.

The prudent thing to do is to replace the barrel. I'm baffled as to why Remington wouldn't do that; but if I was going to keep the gun, I'd replace the barrel myself if Remington wouldn't do it.

_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:04 am
Posts: 1923
Zbigniew wrote:
The question is whether the barrel was exposed to pressures exceeding a proof load and it obviously was, because a proof load won't shear off locking lugs.

The prudent thing to do is to replace the barrel. I'm baffled as to why Remington wouldn't do that; but if I was going to keep the gun, I'd replace the barrel myself if Remington wouldn't do it.


Well, I’m personally uncertain as to whether Remington was obligated to do ANYTHING at company expense if it was determined to be a faulty shell as opposed to a material failure on the part of the gun. The fact that they did what they did even surprised the OP. Of course, if the OP has misgivings concerning the integrity of the barrel due to the incident, he could certainly purchase another. I personally don’t see where Remington would owe him a barrel free of charge. JMO.

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Browning B-80
Remington 870 Super Magnum Turkey
Remington V3 Walnut
Remington 870 Express (Realtree Xtra camo)


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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:27 pm 
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Location: Rochester, NY
Tidefanatic wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
I'm astounded they wouldn't just replace the gun, I can't imagine the exposure to liability to send back a gun that is known to have failed.


Are you expressing an opinion that the gun failed and not the ammunition? If so, what led you to that conclusion?


Well, obviously the gun failed, it sheared the locking bolt lugs. The ammunition may have LEAD to the failure, but the gun still failed.

_________________
S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
kolarske[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.webs.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


Last edited by Skeet_Man on Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Versamax malfunctioned today
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:04 am
Posts: 1923
Skeet_Man wrote:
Tidefanatic wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
I'm astounded they wouldn't just replace the gun, I can't imagine the exposure to liability to send back a gun that is known to have failed.


Are you expressing an opinion that the gun failed and not the ammunition? If so, what led you to that conclusion?


Well, obviously the gun failed, it sheared the locking bolt lugs. The ammunition may have LEAD to the failure, but the gun still failed.


I see what you mean. The shearing of the lugs was precipitated by over pressure due to the failure of the shell, not by an inherent weakness of materials or workmanship in the gun. At least that appears to have been the determination.



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Fabarm L4S Initial Hunter
Ithaca SKB Model 500
Browning B-80
Remington 870 Super Magnum Turkey
Remington V3 Walnut
Remington 870 Express (Realtree Xtra camo)


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