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 Post subject: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:38 am 
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2 bankruptcies in 2 years.
Same factory.
Same state.
Same workers.
It hasn’t worked, why will it this time?
Cheap guns with low profit margins.
Now owned by a real estate company. :w

Tell me how it will work this time? Or is the 3 rd time the charm?




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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:48 pm 
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Dr Duk wrote:
2 bankruptcies in 2 years.
Same factory.
Same state.
Same workers.
It hasn’t worked, why will it this time?
Cheap guns with low profit margins.
Now owned by a real estate company. :w

Tell me how it will work this time? Or is the 3 rd time the charm?


Prior problems have nothing to do with today. Not the same factory (same site . . . maybe), not the same workers, not the same product mix, not the same debt, not the same lawsuits, not the same anything. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:48 pm 
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Dr Duk wrote:

Tell me how it will work this time?


It is considered by some that doing the same thing repeatedly, and making the same mistakes, all while expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Or, perhaps an obsession with failure.

I don't expect a lot from this next iteration of the company formally known as Remington without some necessary, and perhaps painful, changes to leadership, management, labor, equipment, and designs. Ideas are needed. A realistic approach to the market and competition are needed. A devotion to superior quality is necessary. The list could go on. but I don't want this to be construed as a rant or wonton criticism. I really do wish the company and it's employees well. I hope they produce really high quality guns that everyone wants to purchase.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:31 am 
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Location: Spartanburg, SC Lake Adger, NC
OK, let’s give them some help, what would make you, i.e. anyone reading this, want to buy a new Remington? Many years ago when Winchester dropped its Model 70 tons of people said they wished Winchester hadn’t because they always wanted one. Winchester said if those people had purchased one they would have kept on making them. Do they just need to change their line up? Revise old models? Come out with a new lineup? Improve quality? Change their market strategies? Change their targeted market? For me if they would produce a reasonably priced updated 3200 I would buy one.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:45 am 
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What they really need is more advice. Keep it up.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:50 am 
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JRW136 wrote:
OK, let’s give them some help, what would make you, i.e. anyone reading this, want to buy a new Remington? Many years ago when Winchester dropped its Model 70 tons of people said they wished Winchester hadn’t because they always wanted one. Winchester said if those people had purchased one they would have kept on making them. Do they just need to change their line up? Revise old models? Come out with a new lineup? Improve quality? Change their market strategies? Change their targeted market? For me if they would produce a reasonably priced updated 3200 I would buy one.


Well, the first thing that has to happen before I would/can buy a new Remington anything is for them to be in business. That`s a Captain Obvious. Not trying to be a smart a$$. In order for them to be in business, there has to be an owner/operator that cares and has a reasonable degree of proficiency in running a gun manufacturing business.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:46 pm 
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We would need to see a before and after balance sheet along with employment contracts and lease documents to answer OP's question.

My guess is the short road to some revenues is rebranding of some Turk junk.

What i'm willing to bet you WON'T see is:
Real innovation
Improvements in fit/finish
Positive product reviews from anyone other than the bought and paid for gun writers.

If someone were trying to get me to invest i'd be asking for proof of military contracts.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:15 pm 
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Location: NE South Dakota
I think eventually you will see the bread and butter 870 and 700 out of them to go along with some foreign manufactured 22’s and el cheapo model rifles akin to the 788/710/770. The V3, 11-87, versamax, model 7 and others may drop off or may not, but I doubt they will make 3 different autos in the first couple years.

That may be several years and owners down the road though.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:18 pm 
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My only wish at the present time is that I would like to see more communication coming from the new owners. I completely understand why that might not be a priority from them, but a press release or simple announcement on their website would be more than enough. The silence is deafening. I am not even sure it they have even a simple website set up yet.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:30 pm 
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Road Man wrote:
My only wish at the present time is that I would like to see more communication coming from the new owners. I completely understand why that might not be a priority from them, but a press release or simple announcement on their website would be more than enough. The silence is deafening. I am not even sure it they have even a simple website set up yet.


Amen in spades to that. It would go a long way in letting the shooting/firearms public know that indeed there will still be a " Remington Arms ".

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:34 pm 
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In another thread people posted what they want to see from Remington if they had their druthers. Think about what’s most popular right now. Seems like tactical guns are selling and for hunting it seems like mostly semi auto and over under shotguns. Cheap is another common denominator. I’m waiting to see what they do but speaking for myself, I don’t need a cheap gun and I don’t need a (another) pump gun. An over under takes time to get manufacturing right (Ruger, anyone?) so if that direction is in mind it will likely be Turk made. Bottom end rifles like the 783 could easily be outsourced and the handgun market may be near saturated. Remington made some turd handguns anyway so no great loss even though that RM380 was interesting Should have been a 9mm option like the Rorbaugh that it copied.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:22 pm
Posts: 286
Location: NE South Dakota
EricB wrote:
In another thread people posted what they want to see from Remington if they had their druthers. Think about what’s most popular right now. Seems like tactical guns are selling and for hunting it seems like mostly semi auto and over under shotguns. Cheap is another common denominator. I’m waiting to see what they do but speaking for myself, I don’t need a cheap gun and I don’t need a (another) pump gun. An over under takes time to get manufacturing right (Ruger, anyone?) so if that direction is in mind it will likely be Turk made. Bottom end rifles like the 783 could easily be outsourced and the handgun market may be near saturated. Remington made some turd handguns anyway so no great loss even though that RM380 was interesting Should have been a 9mm option like the Rorbaugh that it copied.


The 870 express market still has to be quite large. How many first time shotguns are that 870 express. The 700 bolt is popular with both traditionalists and custom bolt action market.

The SA will be interesting between the 11 87 and the V3. Maybe the Versa Max survives but it's never been in the top 3 or 4 of the 3.5" autos that I have seen.

I think the tactical market is pretty well saturated, but the 870 tactical is pretty bullet proof.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:59 am 
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Tidefanatic wrote:
Amen in spades to that. It would go a long way in letting the shooting/firearms public know that indeed there will still be a " Remington Arms ".


There won't be and there cannot be. Anyone who wants an 1100 or model 700 already has one, everyone who wants an 870 already has three of them. That's all public domain product: anyone can make them if they wish.

No workers, no engineers, no managers, no FFL, no customer service, very little raw materials, no vendors, and no name or trademarks. No sales reps, no distribution, and so it goes. Remington couldn't possibly be more dead. The public really doesn't care and the State of New York doesn't either. Remington's most important asset was its talent. They have all moved on.

Some folks are still waiting for Studebaker, Winchester, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Redfield, SKB, and Elvis to all come roaring back.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:22 pm 
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.

Elvis isn't coming back ? ? ? ? :(

;)

.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:32 pm 
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I’d change the original question somewhat...... using the word ‘survive’ implies there’s at least a pulse currently. From what I’ve read, I’m not sure there is.

Maybe ‘how could Remington be resurrected?’


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:57 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
I’d change the original question somewhat...... using the word ‘survive’ implies there’s at least a pulse currently. From what I’ve read, I’m not sure there is.

Maybe ‘how could Remington be resurrected?’


Most likely in a similar manner that Winchester is/was.

I was reading that Roundhill would have to pay to even call any firearm a Remington as their purchase did not include the name.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:57 am 
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Rooster booster wrote:
Maybe ‘how could Remington be resurrected?’


It isn't going to happen. What everyone has heard is hot air.

https://www.atf.gov/file/109676/download

The "average processing of perfected paper applications" is at 3 months for ATF form 1. The claim that there could be manufacturing in Ilion in a matter of weeks made by the shell company Roundhill is either stupid or a lie: you can take your pick on that one.

You have a ghost plant with rusting equipment that will keep on rusting until April / May 2021 at the least, if they had enough money to start things, if they had any employees or talent, or had a clue how to make a firearm. Lead times for raw materials are now a matter of several months. Raw materials aren't on order and why should they be?

Ruger, who has money, expertise, 1700 employees, and several manufacturing plants has said "We anticipate closing on this purchase in the fourth quarter of 2020, and then we will focus on getting the Marlin lines up and running in our existing Ruger facilities. We look forward to reintroducing shooters to Marlin rifles in the second half of 2021."

It is 9 months for Ruger, but for fake company Roundhill . . . there is no plan and no hope.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:27 am 
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Randy, do you have any personal knowledge of what is going on with any of the facilities or other assets acquired by Roundhill? Have you been to any of these facilities since the auction and seen for yourself what is going on? Have you been in contact with anyone who is in the decision making process regarding these facilities? Or are you just speculating as pretty much everyone here probably is? I don't doubt that you have a long history and considerable resources to call upon for your posts on this matter. I just want to know from what perspective you draw your conclusions.

Personally I have absolutely NO inside information! I only have what I read from various sources, and my own personal conclusions that I draw from the various pieces of information that I am able to glean from these sources.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:06 am 
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On account of the time involved in obtaining an FFL, a few weeks WAS pie in the sky. On that count (and restarting the supply line), I'd expect the factory to be looking pretty dead until 2021 at best.

Have the production workers moved on? If they're coming out to protest their being canned by ROC, I suspect not. Part of the pity of the situation is that there are not a lot of other opportunities in the Ilion area. I suspect most of them will still be available for rehire in the first quarter of 2021. That's if Cuomo doesn't have them shuttered for covid.

Otherwise on the talent side, to produce existing designs they can run pretty light on engineering. Marketing can also coast for a while as distributors are nearly sold out on Remington guns. Coax the suppliers back into the game, recall the production workers off unemployment, and the product will flow.

On the less optimistic side is the story about the problems of the paintball venture. Are Roundhill's finances actually tied up with that? If Italia was no longer ownership in that venture, but merely a hired manager, maybe it won't affect the Remington Ilion venture.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:11 am 
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So I guess I can dismiss the hope that there are stacks of unassembled high grade 1100s and 870s that will get finished and sell for pennies on the dollar.




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