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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:20 pm 
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saskbooknut wrote:
Remember that Richmond Italia was the guiding hand that led GI Sports airgun empire to bankruptcy.
That's not a confidence builder.


https://p8ntballer-forums.com/threads/w ... ed.181889/

My understanding (more accurately, impression based upon a little Googling) of Italia's history with G.I. Sportz: He was instrumental in building the company, and was retired to FL. My reading of "retired" says probably bought out, and pursuing other interests with the proceeds in FL. G.I. Sportz hits hard times, and hires D' Arcy, who in short order gets a fatter offer from ROC (and it sounds like D' Arcy never was really comfortable in the paintball pond). Then G.I. Sportz *hired* Italia back out of retirement. And then Covid happens. Well, I don't see anyone so much as buying paintballs or getting their bottles recharged if you're under lockdown and can't meet with your targets. My reading is that Italia is now back in some ownership role since the company was recently reorganized. Hence, why I suspect Italia has more than lint in his pockets.



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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:40 pm 
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saskbooknut wrote:
Remember that Richmond Italia was the guiding hand that led GI Sports airgun empire to bankruptcy.
That's not a confidence builder.


After buying Remington.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... bankruptcy

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:16 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Litespeed wrote:
Well, the Japanese do all right in the manufacture of shotguns. Miroku-built Brownings being the big boy on the block in the U.S.


You must be joking. The vast majority of "Browning" and "Winchester" shotguns are made in Portugal or Turkey. BPS pumps are being discontinued faster than Browning can announce it. If you want to call Miroku 'the Japanese' have at it. Who else is left?

By the numbers, as far as U.S. production, (last year available data -- 2018) the largest single entity of shotgun production in the United States is family-owned Mossberg, notching 249,183 shotguns made in 2018 from Eagle Pass. No one else is remotely close.

How are BPS pumps being discontinued? The Browning website shows them still in production with new models.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:33 pm 
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Pgeurts wrote:
How are BPS pumps being discontinued? The Browning website shows them still in production with new models.


What do you mean, "how"? They just are. Even the only remaining mass-produced 16 gauge pump, the BPS 16 gauge, is g-o-o-o-n-e.

https://www.browning.com/products/firea ... inued.html

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:48 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Pgeurts wrote:
How are BPS pumps being discontinued? The Browning website shows them still in production with new models.


What do you mean, "how"? They just are. Even the only remaining mass-produced 16 gauge pump, the BPS 16 gauge, is g-o-o-o-n-e.

https://www.browning.com/products/firea ... inued.html

You really do think everyone but you is stupid don't you? Those are discontinued models that doesn't mean the whole platform is gone. There are new 10 ga models and 12 ga models clearly on the website. Browning has always discontinued models but kept the platform. The models on that page are the high end models not the basic models. You completely misrepresented your statement.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:16 pm 
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Browning discontinued all of their decently finished polished blue BPS models. Now, the ugly, cratewood matte-finished BPS is introduced as "new" for 2020: https://www.browning.com/content/browni ... field.html .

The 16 gauge BPS Field, 28 gauge, and .410 bore blued / walnut BPS models are all condemned to the scrap-heap of history. Now, only new, downgraded, ugly 12 and 20 gauge versions remain.

It is difficult to miss the tragic demise of the .410, 28 gauge, and 16 gauge field models, but here they are: https://www.browning.com/content/browni ... field.html .

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:33 am 
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The days of the blued gun in general are gone Everybody now wants camo. Times change.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:13 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
You must be joking. The vast majority of "Browning" and "Winchester" shotguns are made in Portugal or Turkey. BPS pumps are being discontinued faster than Browning can announce it. If you want to call Miroku 'the Japanese' have at it. Who else is left?

By the numbers, as far as U.S. production, (last year available data -- 2018) the largest single entity of shotgun production in the United States is family-owned Mossberg, notching 249,183 shotguns made in 2018 from Eagle Pass. No one else is remotely close.


The bragging right of the BPS for many years is that it was available in all bores. All Browning BPS .410 bore, 28 gauge, and 16 gauges were suddenly discontinued one year ago. Sorry, it wasn't my idea, but BPS's are rapidly fading. This is despite the recent newfound interest in the .410 bore for turkey with TSS loads-- Browning ignored it. Despite the great interest in HD / Tactical pumps, Browning scrapped all of those models as well. The BPS is vanishing due to lack of interest, because Browning doesn't care, or a bit of both. If a sudden mic-drop of more than half of all BPS SKU's and half of the chamberings isn't 'being discontinued faster than Browning can announce it' ... then what is?

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:38 pm 
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Companies drop models all the time. But is that a reason to start telling everybody that Browning has dropped the BPS line. Just a baseless rumor you are trying to start.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:02 pm 
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Since reading is apparently a problem, what I said was . . .

Quote:
The vast majority of "Browning" and "Winchester" shotguns are made in Portugal or Turkey. BPS pumps are being discontinued faster than Browning can announce it.


It is a fact, hidden in plain sight, that Browning has scrapped all BPS 16 gauge, 28 gauge, and .410 models in one fell swoop. This is not a rumor, not an innuendo, but fact: a drastic, unprecedented model drop. In the entire once proud BPS line, only plastic and cratewood models remain.

Never before has Browning dropped en masse the number of BPS models that they just have. The BPS line is decimated.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:34 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Since reading is apparently a problem, what I said was . . .

Quote:
The vast majority of "Browning" and "Winchester" shotguns are made in Portugal or Turkey. BPS pumps are being discontinued faster than Browning can announce it.


It is a fact, hidden in plain sight, that Browning has scrapped all BPS 16 gauge, 28 gauge, and .410 models in one fell swoop. This is not a rumor, not an innuendo, but fact: a drastic, unprecedented model drop. In the entire once proud BPS line, only plastic and cratewood models remain.

Never before has Browning dropped en masse the number of BPS models that they just have. The BPS line is decimated.


So they are suppose to keep producing a line even if they have the data that said it isn't profitable? That sounds like something Remington would do.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:34 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Since reading is apparently a problem, what I said was . . .

Quote:
The vast majority of "Browning" and "Winchester" shotguns are made in Portugal or Turkey. BPS pumps are being discontinued faster than Browning can announce it.


It is a fact, hidden in plain sight, that Browning has scrapped all BPS 16 gauge, 28 gauge, and .410 models in one fell swoop. This is not a rumor, not an innuendo, but fact: a drastic, unprecedented model drop. In the entire once proud BPS line, only plastic and cratewood models remain.

Never before has Browning dropped en masse the number of BPS models that they just have. The BPS line is decimated.

What you are missing is the market. The market does not want pretty guns, those are for upland hunters. People want more utilitarian guns something that if it gets scratched they don't care. But they kept the the 10 ga that was the surprise. The heart of the market is 12 ga, 28 and 16 are fringe calibers. It is odd they dropped the 20 ga. But nobody wants a $700 pump when you can buy a $500 excellent Semi Auto. I wonder what would happen if they brought out a Silver or Maxus auto.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:45 pm 
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I happen to see this today and am merely offering it for information, only; without any interpretation, opinion, or insights;

https://www.wktv.com/content/news/Round ... 53701.html

I have no idea if this means they will actually start producing anything.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:55 pm 
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Claydust wrote:
I happen to see this today and am merely offering it for information, only; without any interpretation, opinion, or insights;

https://www.wktv.com/content/news/Round ... 53701.html

I have no idea if this means they will actually start producing anything.


Shortly after this report, there was another which added that RemArms was nearing their targeted number of 200 rehires for the restart. Yesterday I saw a comment in Remington's Instagram feed from a laid off worker saying that he had heard from one of the rehires that the restart target is March 1.

It's also been reported that RemArms is actively negotiating an agreement with the union.

It's going to be an uphill pull, with many obstacles. I will note that their Instagram account is apparently being run by the ammunition side of things, but they are actively promoting the gun side of the brand, too. So, a working relationship with Vista shouldn't be one of those obstacles.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:01 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
It is a fact, hidden in plain sight, that Browning has scrapped all BPS 16 gauge, 28 gauge, and .410 models in one fell swoop.


Item Number
012286814
UPC
023614741305
Gauge
28 Ga
Chamber Length
2 3/4"
Barrel Length
26"

Item Number
012286813
UPC
023614741312
Gauge
28 Ga
Chamber Length
2 3/4"
Barrel Length
28"

Item Number
012286914
UPC
023614741329
Gauge
410 bore
Chamber Length
3"
Barrel Length
26"

Pgeurts wrote:
Companies drop models all the time. But is that a reason to start telling everybody that Browning has dropped the BPS line. Just a baseless rumor you are trying to start.


Don't expect an apology or correction from Randy.

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Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:33 pm 
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F*W*F wrote:
Claydust wrote:
I happen to see this today and am merely offering it for information, only; without any interpretation, opinion, or insights;

https://www.wktv.com/content/news/Round ... 53701.html

I have no idea if this means they will actually start producing anything.


Shortly after this report, there was another which added that RemArms was nearing their targeted number of 200 rehires for the restart. Yesterday I saw a comment in Remington's Instagram feed from a laid off worker saying that he had heard from one of the rehires that the restart target is March 1.

It's also been reported that RemArms is actively negotiating an agreement with the union.

It's going to be an uphill pull, with many obstacles. I will note that their Instagram account is apparently being run by the ammunition side of things, but they are actively promoting the gun side of the brand, too. So, a working relationship with Vista shouldn't be one of those obstacles.


Well, can only wish them the very best. Has never seemed right to me to contemplate an American firearms scene without a Big Green.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:58 pm 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
It is a fact, hidden in plain sight, that Browning has scrapped all BPS 16 gauge, 28 gauge, and .410 models in one fell swoop.


According to Browning, they are all scrapped. All you have to do is ask them.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:45 pm 
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I don't mind the models that are discontinued ,it is the blanket statement how the platform is being scrapped. The models they scrapped make sense except for te 20 ga. The market is being flooded with low quality pumps hard to compete when you have a high end pump. 16\28 ga have always been fringe calibers with a loyal but small following. Who want same to buy a $700 ,410 when you can buy a mossberg for under $300. The market for pumps ave changed. Remember when having an 11-87 or Benelli in the blind made you a big deal. It is not that way anymore, the market has Drastically changed for pumps. Mossberg was considered a cheap pump because I of the alloy receiver,now it has been proven they we're ahead of their time. A high end steel receive pump isn't what it used to be.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:11 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
It is a fact, hidden in plain sight, that Browning has scrapped all BPS 16 gauge, 28 gauge, and .410 models in one fell swoop.


According to Browning, they are all scrapped. All you have to do is ask them.


Browning discontinued the gloss blued/matte wood in 2018 (with plastic buttplate in the 28 & 410). They replaced it with the matte blued/matte wood (with recoil pad regardless of gauge). Prior to gloss blued/matte wood they made them gloss blued/gloss wood. When Browning moves something to the discontinued page, it just means that they aren't making that specific cosmetic variation anymore.

Yes, the current model is BLUED, and the wood is still WALNUT, although it is disappointing they no longer have gloss bluing, and a recoil pad on a 410 is a bit of a headscratcher although I'm sure it cuts down on inventory.

Based on the 2020 US catalog, they did not show a 28 or 410, so you may have been correct for 2020 (2019 catalog shows only the 410). I cannot find a 2021 Browning US catalog, but the 2021 Browning Canada catalog lists the 28, 28, and 410 as "new", and they are listed on the Browning US website, as I copy/pasted before. Some years they catalog certain configurations, some years they don't, and cosmetic variations drift in and out. Probably just based on production runs and import schedules, they make a whole bunch, and once they sell out they make a whole bunch more.

I'm kinda surprised they offer both the 26" and 28" in 28ga, and they used to offer a 28" 410 as well, but I haven't seen any for sale except for the DU nickel plated version ($$).

https://www.browningcatalog.ca/

Tangentially, it's a bit embarrassing that Browning Canada has the 2021 catalog listed, and Browning US does not.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:59 pm 
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It has nothing to do with Remington, but the BPS sub-gauges are history. They have only run them once a year, if that. Catalogs and factory website listings don't mean much. You can't find a single new BPS 28 gauge on Gunbroker: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Ke ... 28%20gauge . It isn't like they were ever strong sellers.

You won't even find a used 16 gauge or 410 BPS . . . https://www.gunbroker.com/Pump-Action-S ... ageIndex=1 .

Whether they ever make any of them again, I have no idea. They have sold less and less every year, due to popular disinterest. It is no surprise that they are currently vaporware.



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