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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:41 pm 
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And if they ever make anything and want to put the Remington name on it, they will have to pay Vista a royalty



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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:14 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:


The union is demanding things from a company ( Remington Outdoors ) that doesn`t even exist anymore. Roundhill, I would assume, has no collective bargaining agreement with the union and has absolutely no obligations to their membership. I would think that the union would have to begin anew in trying to organize the workforce of what would amount to a new company, whatever it ends up being called.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:21 pm 
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They (Roundhill) have never designed a single firearm, they have never manufactured a single firearm, they have never marketed a single firearm, and no one has ever ordered a firearm from "Roundhill." They have sold zero firearms in history. What could possibly go wrong?

They are also spectacularly ignorant, spectacular liars, or perhaps both. In the WUTR-TV interview of October 21, Richmond Italia made some strange comments. “We’re not talking, we’re not shutting down for six months,” said Italia. “We’re talking weeks to a maximum a couple of months. Maximum.”

The "Maximum Maximum" cry was ludicrous from the beginning. The couple of months has already passed. Now, there are job offers to ex-Remington employees to start February 15th, 2021. To do what, exactly? Start designing a website? Start plugging in phone lines? Turn a couple of lights on?

The Remington employees that went from being furloughed to sacked back in October have moved on. When the kids need new shoes, there isn't time to play "I wonder if Roundhill will ever get a firearms manufacturing license?" Those folks have been in limbo since October, nearly 800, and the intoxicated potential of maybe hiring back 200 workers sometime hardly helps the majority of them.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:27 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
They (Roundhill) has never designed a single firearm, they have never manufactured a single firearm, they have never marketed a single firearm, and no one has ever ordered a firearm from "Roundhill." What could possibly go wrong?

They are also spectacularly ignorant, spectacular liars, or both. In the WUTR-TV interview of October 21, Richmond Italia made some strange comments. “We’re not talking, we’re not shutting down for six months,” said Italia. “We’re talking weeks to a maximum a couple of months. Maximum.”

The "Maximum Maximum" cry was ludicrous from the beginning. The couple of months has already passed. Now, there are job offers to ex-Remington employees to start February 15th, 2021. Start designing a website? Start plugging in phone lines? Turn a couple of lights on?

The Remington employees that went from being furloughed to sacked back in October have all moved on. When the kids need new shoes, there isn't time to play "I wonder if Roundhill will ever get a firearms manufacturing license?" Those folks have been in limbo since October, nearly 800, and the intoxicated potential of maybe hiring back 200 workers sometime hardly helps the majority of them.


So, Randy, the job offers to 200 former employees is what, a ruse? Not saying that it`s not, just curious as to your take on what that might be about.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:32 pm 
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Inventory and liquidate

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:34 pm 
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casonet wrote:
Inventory and liquidate


Well, yes, there`s always that, I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:37 pm 
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"The 200 people who were offered jobs must either accept the offers or sign off on any prior severance or vacation pay owed by Remington under the union contract."

It sounds like the "DEADLINE" is an attempt to blow up the union, or what little remains of it. Why or how the "new owners" can demand that legitimate claims against the old owners be dropped is really something.

Quote:
In New York State, the elements of the tort of interference with contract are “[1] the existence of [a] valid contract with a third party, [2] defendant's knowledge of that contract, [3] defendant's intentional and improper procuring of a breach, and [4] damages.”

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:54 pm 
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With New York courts, anything is possible including inherited liability

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:59 pm 
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The whole situation makes me physically ill.


Quote:
Vista Outdoor, Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Lonoke ammunitions business and certain assets
Roundhill Group, LLC -- The successful bidder with respect to Non-Marlin firearms business
Sierra Bullets, LLC – The successful bidder with respect to Barnes ammunitions business
Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Marlin Firearms Business
JJE Capital Holdings, LLC -- The successful bidder with respect to DPMS, H&R, Stormlake, AAC, and Parker brands
Franklin Armory Holdings, Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Bushmaster brand and certain related assets
Sportsman Warehouse Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Tapco brand


If you take a look back at the successful bidders, all are legitimate, established, firearms industry veterans . . . except for one.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:01 pm 
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When I was in my early 30's I worked at a place that was sold. We were working under a union contract. When the new owners legally took possession of the business every single employe lost their job. Our contract died with the old employer. None of us got a penny nor did any of us get our old jobs back.

I don't know what the laws are in New York, but my understanding based on my own experience is that the old workers could pursue an action against the old employer if they want, but with regards to the new employer... well they are lucky to get anything.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:09 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
The whole situation makes me physically ill.


Quote:
Vista Outdoor, Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Lonoke ammunitions business and certain assets
Roundhill Group, LLC -- The successful bidder with respect to Non-Marlin firearms business
Sierra Bullets, LLC – The successful bidder with respect to Barnes ammunitions business
Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Marlin Firearms Business
JJE Capital Holdings, LLC -- The successful bidder with respect to DPMS, H&R, Stormlake, AAC, and Parker brands
Franklin Armory Holdings, Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Bushmaster brand and certain related assets
Sportsman Warehouse Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Tapco brand


If you take a look back at the successful bidders, all are legitimate, established, firearms industry veterans . . . except for one.


I still would have liked to see a nameplate like Savage or Ruger end up with the Remington firearms part of the business. The shotguns would have given either of these nameplates instant credibility in that portion of the market. The Versa Max and the V3 represent new technology while the tooling for the 870, 1100, and 11-87 lines must be worth something. The 700 series rifles would help a little, but both Savage and Ruger are well represented in that segment, and well lets just say that Remington handguns were less than stellar performers in the very well saturated marketplace.

Certainly the liabilities for Savage or Ruger would have been considerable and it seems that both of these companies either did not bid at all, or bid below the winning number. They each made considered business decisions, but still, it would have been nice to see the shotgun portion go to a respected manufacturer.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:11 pm 
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casonet wrote:
With New York courts, anything is possible including inherited liability


That would figure, wouldn`t it? Particularly if it`s an opportunity to put a last nail in a gun manufacturing company`s coffin.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:16 pm 
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Road Man wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
The whole situation makes me physically ill.


Quote:
Vista Outdoor, Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Lonoke ammunitions business and certain assets
Roundhill Group, LLC -- The successful bidder with respect to Non-Marlin firearms business
Sierra Bullets, LLC – The successful bidder with respect to Barnes ammunitions business
Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Marlin Firearms Business
JJE Capital Holdings, LLC -- The successful bidder with respect to DPMS, H&R, Stormlake, AAC, and Parker brands
Franklin Armory Holdings, Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Bushmaster brand and certain related assets
Sportsman Warehouse Inc. -- The successful bidder with respect to Tapco brand


If you take a look back at the successful bidders, all are legitimate, established, firearms industry veterans . . . except for one.


I still would have liked to see a nameplate like Savage or Ruger end up with the Remington firearms part of the business. The shotguns would have given either of these nameplates instant credibility in that portion of the market. The Versa Max and the V3 represent new technology while the tooling for the 870, 1100, and 11-87 lines must be worth something. The 700 series rifles would help a little, but both Savage and Ruger are well represented in that segment, and well lets just say that Remington handguns were less than stellar performers in the very well saturated marketplace.

Certainly the liabilities for Savage or Ruger would have been considerable and it seems that both of these companies either did not bid at all, or bid below the winning number. They each made considered business decisions, but still, it would have been nice to see the shotgun portion go to a respected manufacturer.


Except for those who, for whatever warped reason, wanted to see Remington fail, we were all hoping for that.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:27 pm 
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Road Man wrote:
They each made considered business decisions, but still, it would have been nice to see the shotgun portion go to a respected manufacturer.


The Remington brand is hugely recognizable, call it "brand equity." The social value of a well-known brand name is substantial. Ruger recognized this with the Marlin brand, and Vista recognized this with the Remington brand. Neither brand is available except for a potential licensing deal with Ruger or Vista.

That spells doom for the already-razor thin margins of 870 Expresses and the like. As for bolt-action rifles, there is a tremendous glut of them out there. Every day that goes by, Remington firearms loses what would have been sales. They no longer have any dealers or shelf space.

Ruger, Savage, Mossberg, S & W, etc., continually erode what used to be the formidable market presence of Remington firearms every day.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:15 pm 
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The festivities continue: https://www.syracuse.com/business/2020/ ... ffers.html .

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:21 am 
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Like Randy said, the Roundhill Group knows zero, zilch, nothing about firearms. I`m afraid that they will just sell off what they bought for profit.


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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:41 am 
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Wonder if anybody signed on?

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:19 am 
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Look, if folks are out picketing, and anguishing over accepting job offers, they haven't "moved on".

And speaking of market share, if I go on a distributor's website, all those Remington SKU's are still sitting there, empty. And given current supply on everything else, the corresponding space in the warehouse hasn't been gobbled up by competing product. Opportunity in the marketplace hasn't disappeared.

I'm not saying Roundhill (apparently DBA RemArms) is a safe bet. There are obviously reasons why the centerpiece of ROC went for a paltry $13M. And those reasons are why a dark horse like Roundhill stepped in. If a white knight won't step up, sometimes you have to pin your hopes on a dark one.

Yeah, I'm sure from the perspective of the workers the situation isn't optimal, and some RemArms actions would appear nefarious. But, when the union talks like they have an agreement with "the plant", that just doesn't make sense. And while it's possible selection of the 200 could've been done to undermine seniority, it could also be about whose skill best fit the initial restart needs. That old factory, while venerable, is no doubt more liability than asset. The workforce needs to consider how far they can play chicken lest the ownership decides to haul the machinery elsewhere.

And yeah, Italia was being unrealistic with his initial projected timetable. That's what people tend to do when they're engaged in PR. In the best of times I'd expect a new FFL to take up to a few months. Covid wouldn't speed things up. Speaking of, I haven't seen anything further on the efforts of the Ilion local politicians to get "essential business" status for RemArms. That's another potential comeback killer. Even Pritzker here in IL let the firearms businesses stay open.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:20 pm 
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F*W*F wrote:
Look, if folks are out picketing, and anguishing over accepting job offers, they haven't "moved on".

And speaking of market share, if I go on a distributor's website, all those Remington SKU's are still sitting there, empty. And given current supply on everything else, the corresponding space in the warehouse hasn't been gobbled up by competing product. Opportunity in the marketplace hasn't disappeared.

I'm not saying Roundhill (apparently DBA RemArms) is a safe bet. There are obviously reasons why the centerpiece of ROC went for a paltry $13M. And those reasons are why a dark horse like Roundhill stepped in. If a white knight won't step up, sometimes you have to pin your hopes on a dark one.

Yeah, I'm sure from the perspective of the workers the situation isn't optimal, and some RemArms actions would appear nefarious. But, when the union talks like they have an agreement with "the plant", that just doesn't make sense. And while it's possible selection of the 200 could've been done to undermine seniority, it could also be about whose skill best fit the initial restart needs. That old factory, while venerable, is no doubt more liability than asset. The workforce needs to consider how far they can play chicken lest the ownership decides to haul the machinery elsewhere.

And yeah, Italia was being unrealistic with his initial projected timetable. That's what people tend to do when they're engaged in PR. In the best of times I'd expect a new FFL to take up to a few months. Covid wouldn't speed things up. Speaking of, I haven't seen anything further on the efforts of the Ilion local politicians to get "essential business" status for RemArms. That's another potential comeback killer. Even Pritzker here in IL let the firearms businesses stay open.


That`s an interesting observation IMO concerning "essential business" status. I don`t know what`s required to obtain that, but based on the governor`s speed in which to declare Remington " non-essential " back when the pandemic first started, I` d imagine that it would be a rather daunting hill to climb.

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 Post subject: Re: How can Remington survive?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:01 pm 
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Remember that Richmond Italia was the guiding hand that led GI Sports airgun empire to bankruptcy.
That's not a confidence builder.




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