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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:30 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Remington has nothing significant in the way of parts. It is all liquidated, something no one would do if they were going to make V3's or Versa Max shotguns ever again, for example.


Are you saying the current owners of Remington liquidated the entirety of the firearm component inventory of Remington? In other words, they are starting at literal zero, not a screw or spring in sight?


If I was saying that, I would have said it. As I didn't say that at all, you should readily understand that I'm not suggesting, much less saying that.

All you have to do is read https://cases.primeclerk.com/RemingtonO ... d2=0&cid=0 and you can see the situation.


Where in that does it say that Old Remington sold any inventory of parts to anyone other than New Remington as part of the auction process?

Page 14 seems to represent a fairly large inventory of parts and finished product listed as assets.

Page 6 shows: "Following completion of the Auction and upon the Court’s entry of the applicable Sale Order, the Debtors entered into
an asset purchase agreement with Roundhill (the “Roundhill APA”). Under the Roundhill APA, Roundhill would
acquire certain of the Debtors’ assets primarily related to the manufacturing design, marketing and sale of shotguns,
rifles, handguns and modular firearms and related components and accessories (other than assets under the Debtors’
Marlin brand) (collectively, the “Roundhill Business”) in exchange for cash consideration of $13.0 million. The assets
that would be purchased under the Roundhill APA included the Debtors’ facilities in Ilion, New York and Lenoir City,
Tennessee, but Roundhill was not purchasing the Remington brand or the Debtors’ Huntsville, Alabama or Madison,
North Carolina facilities. Roundhill also assumed certain other liabilities and agreed to pay all cure costs relating to
certain assumed leases and contracts. The Roundhill APA included certain conditions to closing including, the entry into
a trademark licensing agreement between Vista and Roundhill to license the Remington brand to Roundhill for use in
the Roundhill Business. Roundhill would also receive a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free license to use
certain of the patents acquired by Ruger, in the Roundhill Business. "

I'm not seeing any Remington branded firearm components being sold to anyone other than Roundhill (who I am referring to when I say New Remington).



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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:39 pm 
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I read the document that Randy linked. I'm not a lawyer so some of it certainly got past me, but I did read it. One big thing that was mentioned in a few places is the licensing agreement between Vista and Roundhill for the use of the Remington name on the firearms that Roundhill intends to manufacture. There is also mention of permission for Roundhill to use at no cost patents transferred to Ruger in the Marlin sale.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that Roundhill will need to pay a royalty to Vista if they want to use the Remington name. Well, it seems that was addressed in the sale and is not a point of contention. Roundhill also got in the sale the intellectual information concerning the firearms that they now own the rights to manufacture, and even some intellectual information regarding Marlin firearms. So Roundhill clearly owns the designs etc. for the V3, the VersaMax, and any components or technology for everything that the previous owners had with regard to Shotguns, Rifles, and handguns from the old Remington company. Of course certain things like Bushmaster and Marlin have some exclusions but Roundhill owns the rights to the 20ga. V3 designs, fancy high grade V3's, etc...

Sure, not a lot of inventory assets seem to be listed, or at least the value of that inventory. It sure does look like the previous owners consumed or sold what they could.

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:42 pm 
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If Remington did liquidate everything where are all of the V3 parts? .Bolts , bolt carriers , firing pins , ejector rods , and all of the little parts that made up the gun. ? Did the machine shops that made up parts only make "1" part at a time until they got they phone call to STOP PRODUCTION................. did the disgruntled work force stuff their pockets as they left? I don't see it at Midwest , GUNPARTS or anywhere else . I would bet there is a barrel of each in the Remington factory. someone said their were 70,000 V3's produced and NO extra parts ?
I too wonder about some peoples motives .


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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:55 pm 
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.45colt wrote:
If Remington did liquidate everything where are all of the V3 parts? .Bolts , bolt carriers , firing pins , ejector rods , and all of the little parts that made up the gun.


V3 long guns have not been made in any quantity for the last 1-1/2 years. There was a huge backlog of TAC-13 orders that were never made-- tens of thousands of them, not made due to lack of parts.

Quote:
October 2, 2020: The Roundhill Group is committed to restoring the Remington name and continuing the firearm manufacturer’s longstanding tradition of quality craftsmanship. The company does not have major real estate holdings elsewhere and the owners look forward to continuing to operate the historic Ilion plant. Within 30 to 60 days an initial recall of 200 workers is expected, and I would anticipate additional growth shortly thereafter.


You can only absorb so many blatant lies before you mush apply a healthy, ample dose of skepticism.

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:35 pm 
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The advantage they have IF they start up again is a proven products. Whether they can do it or not remains to be seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:51 pm 
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Not proven by the new owners, no proven QC, no proven customer service, no known warranty, no dealers, no proven employees, no proven engineers, no proven product managers, no proven leadership, no proven anything. Roundhill has never made a gun at all and legally, they still cannot.

We apparently have a quite different view of "proven."

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:54 pm 
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[quote="RandyWakeman"]Not proven by the new owners, no proven QC, no proven customer service, no known warranty, no dealers, no proven employees, no proven engineers, no proven product managers, no proven leadership, no proven anything. Roundhill has never made a gun at all and legally, they still cannot.

We apparently have a quite different view of "proven."[/quote
I said proven product nothing else. What good did all those people do before when they went bankrupt twice. If they pull it off a fresh start might be good for them. Remember when I told you Remington was on its butt a year ago? And you told me how it was going to just fine and look where we are.


Last edited by Pgeurts on Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:58 pm 
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Pgeurts wrote:
The advantage they have IF they start up again is a proven products. Whether they can do it or not remains to be seen.

Even though Remington had functioning designs, I bet Roundhill cannot pull it off. I don't care if they have the drawings, machines, fixtures, tools and gauges, it does not mean they can reproduce product of the same quality and functionality as Remington.
Here's why I think they can't do it. Remington has some designs that are loooooong in the tooth. They have been making them for a long time, largely unchanged. Anytime you've made a product for a long time, the workers learn what they can get away with. And, eventually, you're making parts that are not totally to print. So when someone else tries to make parts to print, they'll find they don't work with the mating components. I'd say, at this point, Roundhill doesn't know what they don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:13 pm 
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Vette Jockey2 wrote:
Pgeurts wrote:
The advantage they have IF they start up again is a proven products. Whether they can do it or not remains to be seen.

Even though Remington had functioning designs, I bet Roundhill cannot pull it off. I don't care if they have the drawings, machines, fixtures, tools and gauges, it does not mean they can reproduce product of the same quality and functionality as Remington.
Here's why I think they can't do it. Remington has some designs that are loooooong in the tooth. They have been making them for a long time, largely unchanged. Anytime you've made a product for a long time, the workers learn what they can get away with. And, eventually, you're making parts that are not totally to print. So when someone else tries to make parts to print, they'll find they don't work with the mating components. I'd say, at this point, Roundhill doesn't know what they don't know.

Have you actually held an 870 express? Did you see what Remington did to the Marlin Rifle? Most gun designs are long in the tooth. I am not so sure a fresh start is the worst thing for Remington. The V3 and Versa max are great guns but there quality could have been better.


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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:27 pm 
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Pgeurts wrote:
Vette Jockey2 wrote:
Pgeurts wrote:
The advantage they have IF they start up again is a proven products. Whether they can do it or not remains to be seen.

Even though Remington had functioning designs, I bet Roundhill cannot pull it off. I don't care if they have the drawings, machines, fixtures, tools and gauges, it does not mean they can reproduce product of the same quality and functionality as Remington.
Here's why I think they can't do it. Remington has some designs that are loooooong in the tooth. They have been making them for a long time, largely unchanged. Anytime you've made a product for a long time, the workers learn what they can get away with. And, eventually, you're making parts that are not totally to print. So when someone else tries to make parts to print, they'll find they don't work with the mating components. I'd say, at this point, Roundhill doesn't know what they don't know.

Have you actually held an 870 express? Sure, I owned one. Not the smoothest, but certainly functional. Did you see what Remington did to the Marlin Rifle? [color=#FF0000]No, I have not.[/color] Most gun designs are long in the tooth. I am not so sure a fresh start is the worst thing for Remington. The V3 and Versa max are great guns but there quality could have been better. All I'm saying is that Roundhill will not make guns, right out of the gate. They may well learn how to, but there will be a steep learning curve.


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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:44 pm 
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Vette Jockey2 wrote:
Even though Remington had functioning designs


What is not proven about the Browning Automatic-Five or the Winchester Model 12? Merely saying a shotgun was (or is functional) is hardly a ticket to sustained success. There are countless firearms that were functional, but no one so much as tries to make them today, as they are neither wondrously desirable or manufacture-able. The day of steel-receiver autoloading shotgun is gone, and the days of the steel-receiver pump are numbered.

Clinging to non-manufacture-able designs sent Winchester into bankruptcy, Browning into insolvency, Savage into insolvency, Franchi into insolvency, SKB into insolvency, Ithaca into bankruptcy, and put many other companies into the "For Sale, Please!" category. As a bonus, the menacing headwinds of New York State that sent Kimber fleeing to the south have no indication of letting up soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:51 pm 
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Quote:
Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?


Remington has been dead for far longer than four days. :|

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:43 am 
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Reposting for an answer to my question:

RandyWakeman wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Remington has nothing significant in the way of parts. It is all liquidated, something no one would do if they were going to make V3's or Versa Max shotguns ever again, for example.


Are you saying the current owners of Remington liquidated the entirety of the firearm component inventory of Remington? In other words, they are starting at literal zero, not a screw or spring in sight?


If I was saying that, I would have said it. As I didn't say that at all, you should readily understand that I'm not suggesting, much less saying that.

All you have to do is read https://cases.primeclerk.com/RemingtonO ... d2=0&cid=0 and you can see the situation.


Where in that does it say that Old Remington sold any inventory of parts to anyone other than New Remington as part of the auction process?

Page 14 seems to represent a fairly large inventory of parts and finished product listed as assets.

Page 6 shows: "Following completion of the Auction and upon the Court’s entry of the applicable Sale Order, the Debtors entered into
an asset purchase agreement with Roundhill (the “Roundhill APA”). Under the Roundhill APA, Roundhill would
acquire certain of the Debtors’ assets primarily related to the manufacturing design, marketing and sale of shotguns,
rifles, handguns and modular firearms and related components and accessories (other than assets under the Debtors’
Marlin brand) (collectively, the “Roundhill Business”) in exchange for cash consideration of $13.0 million. The assets
that would be purchased under the Roundhill APA included the Debtors’ facilities in Ilion, New York and Lenoir City,
Tennessee, but Roundhill was not purchasing the Remington brand or the Debtors’ Huntsville, Alabama or Madison,
North Carolina facilities. Roundhill also assumed certain other liabilities and agreed to pay all cure costs relating to
certain assumed leases and contracts. The Roundhill APA included certain conditions to closing including, the entry into
a trademark licensing agreement between Vista and Roundhill to license the Remington brand to Roundhill for use in
the Roundhill Business. Roundhill would also receive a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free license to use
certain of the patents acquired by Ruger, in the Roundhill Business. "

I'm not seeing any Remington branded firearm components being sold to anyone other than Roundhill (who I am referring to when I say New Remington).

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:19 pm 
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On the topic of dumped parts supplies...

Much of what I saw on CDNN's site could possibly fall into two categories:

Leftovers from discontinued lines: ROC was jumping out of the civilian MSR market, and I suspect the non-1911 pistol lines were marked for cancellation. So, I'm not surprised variously packaged AR and RP parts were dumped to CDNN.

Parts which may have not actually been in ROC's possession: if certain parts were being outsourced by ROC, those vendors may have been left with inventory, and dumped it to CDNN. I wouldn't be surprised if items like gunstocks, choke tubes, etc. would be examples of this.

If that's how certain parts got liquidated, I don't see how that would reflect negatively on the prospects (or intentions) of RemArms.

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:39 pm 
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Road Man wrote:
I read the document that Randy linked. I'm not a lawyer so some of it certainly got past me, but I did read it. One big thing that was mentioned in a few places is the licensing agreement between Vista and Roundhill for the use of the Remington name on the firearms that Roundhill intends to manufacture. There is also mention of permission for Roundhill to use at no cost patents transferred to Ruger in the Marlin sale.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that Roundhill will need to pay a royalty to Vista if they want to use the Remington name. Well, it seems that was addressed in the sale and is not a point of contention. Roundhill also got in the sale the intellectual information concerning the firearms that they now own the rights to manufacture, and even some intellectual information regarding Marlin firearms. So Roundhill clearly owns the designs etc. for the V3, the VersaMax, and any components or technology for everything that the previous owners had with regard to Shotguns, Rifles, and handguns from the old Remington company. Of course certain things like Bushmaster and Marlin have some exclusions but Roundhill owns the rights to the 20ga. V3 designs, fancy high grade V3's, etc...

Sure, not a lot of inventory assets seem to be listed, or at least the value of that inventory. It sure does look like the previous owners consumed or sold what they could.


Yes, I don't see the need for a working relationship with Vista as an impediment to RemArms. Vista is posting RemArms contact info on the Remington ammunition site, and still maintaining some pages dealing with Remington firearms legacy info. Vista seems poised for an amicable relationship with RemArms.

The references to Marlin intellectual property are curious, but could boil down to one product line - the 783 is largely a restyled Marlin X7. Could be other products involved, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:05 pm 
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The new owners need to hire back the people who were working on the more recent designs, namely the V3 and VersaMax, and concentrate on producing those. There was and is a pent up demand for them. If and when those are up and running, start looking at the upgraded versions, plus the 20-gauge V3.


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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:18 pm 
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DanG wrote:
The new owners need to hire back the people who were working on the more recent designs


You must be joking. Those folks already have new jobs and they aren't coming back. Nor are they interested in moving to Ilion, N.Y.

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:52 pm 
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People are leaving New York, and California for that matter, to states with a much lower tax burden. All they need is an excuse and they’re gone never to return

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:13 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
DanG wrote:
The new owners need to hire back the people who were working on the more recent designs


You must be joking. Those folks already have new jobs and they aren't coming back. Nor are they interested in moving to Ilion, N.Y.


You may be right, but how do you know who has jobs where? Do you know all those people personally or are you just surmising that they have other jobs?

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 Post subject: Re: Is RemArms, LLC Another Lazarus?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:52 pm 
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Tidefanatic wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
DanG wrote:
The new owners need to hire back the people who were working on the more recent designs


You must be joking. Those folks already have new jobs and they aren't coming back. Nor are they interested in moving to Ilion, N.Y.


You may be right, but how do you know who has jobs where? Do you know all those people personally or are you just surmising that they have other jobs?


I'm INCREDIBLY dubious that there were enough job openings in Herkimer county to absorb the workforce of Remington with nearly ANY jobs, let alone one that could offer a comparable compensation package. If there were, why would anyone bother picketing, obviously THOSE people want their jobs back...

Other than Remington, the largest employers are .gov, .edu, and healthcare, not the sort of employment machinists and gun assemblers are going to walk in to.

Here are a list of non-gov't options: http://www.shovelready.com/employers_list.asp?Herkimer



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