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 Post subject: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:35 am 
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Considering Beretta Optima factory chokes, what is your pattern experience regarding the skeet choke (negative constriction) vs the cylinder choke?

Which one produces the most open pattern with less flyers?

I know in theory the Beretta skeet choke with negative constriction is supposed to produce a more open pattern, but in real life things are sometimes different, that's why I would appreciate your comments.

(I am aware that Beretta produces a "Skeet USA" choke, with 0.005" constriction. this is a different story)

Thanks




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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:07 am 
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Why would you or anyone really think that a "negative" choke would "produce" a wider pattern than a straight cylinder bore?

Do you think that just because the barrel/choke walls pull away from the advancing shot column by a minute few thousandths, the shot is going to spread any faster than if there was actually no barrel/choke from that point on? From the point that the shot column no longer touches the barrel/choke walls, it essentially becomes the end of a cylinder bore barrel. (If it expands and still stays in contact with the walls, then it is not even a true cylinder choke.)

Do you think it is somehow, magically pulling the shot outwards? Nothing will ever do that. Even the rifled chokes only expand/throw the very outside pellets out of the core main charge, which continues pretty well straight down range.

Now, just musing, if the whole charge was started spinning, from the get-go, you would get fast expansion of the pattern. Hmm, anyone want to come up with a new wad incorporating that idea?

Clyde


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 Post subject: Re: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:27 am 
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jugchoke wrote:
Why would you or anyone really think that a "negative" choke would "produce" a wider pattern than a straight cylinder bore?

Do you think that just because the barrel/choke walls pull away from the advancing shot column by a minute few thousandths, the shot is going to spread any faster than if there was actually no barrel/choke from that point on? From the point that the shot column no longer touches the barrel/choke walls, it essentially becomes the end of a cylinder bore barrel. (If it expands and still stays in contact with the walls, then it is not even a true cylinder choke.)

Do you think it is somehow, magically pulling the shot outwards? Nothing will ever do that. Even the rifled chokes only expand/throw the very outside pellets out of the core main charge, which continues pretty well straight down range.

Now, just musing, if the whole charge was started spinning, from the get-go, you would get fast expansion of the pattern. Hmm, anyone want to come up with a new wad incorporating that idea?

Clyde

Amazing the absolute statements that are made about the strange topic of shotgun barrel choking, when it is difficult to get any consistent info from the choke makers.

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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:51 am 
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I've found from first hand patterning that they both produce consistent patterns with very few flyers out to about 30 yards. The Euro skeet does in fact throw a slightly larger pattern, from my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:05 am 
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Curly-Nohair wrote:
Amazing the absolute statements that are made about the strange topic of shotgun barrel choking, when it is difficult to get any consistent info from the choke makers.


You expect consistent, true answers from makers wanting to sell as many units as possible, when they know that a negative choke can not possibly give any wider pattern than a plain cylinder bore?

(They want you to buy one of each, negative, cylinder and plus .005!)

There is just absolutely no physical reason for it to do so. As one shortens a barrel, the cylinder bore does throw a wider pattern, but not by much out at normal barrel lengths. But as you shorten it so much, it widens faster as the shortening approaches the very front end of the hull. With less than an inch beyond the hull mouth, it would throw a quite wide pattern.

If you had say, a 28 inch barrel in cylinder bore, solid barrel, it might shoot just a hair tighter than if one reamed a cone in it for the first inch behind the muzzle, yes. But no more so than if one just cut that same inch off of the original length barrel.

In other words, once the shot charge looses contact with the barrel walls, including the choke, the barrel/choke has no more influence on the shot charge.

Again, they want you to buy one of each, of course!

Now if you had enough barrel wall thickness to accommodate a Tula type choke, (the old Russian skeet choke from some years ago), one could alter the jug portion, (much larger in diameter than the cylinder bore) and final exit diameter, (still somewhat over bore to the cylinder bore), to get a larger than cylinder pattern. That is essentially what the Russians did with it, along with it throwing a more consistent, across the diameter, pattern. Less of a dense core.

But it of course was designed for fiber wad loads, plus it was just a bugger to keep clean. Many years ago I had an IAB skeet gun with those type chokes machined into the muzzles. (I do wish I hadn't lost it in the first divorce!) Damn!

That type choke "disturbs" the whole shot charge enough to be able to sort of re-shape it a bit. Something even the rifled choke tubes won't do, they only influence some of the very edge pellets, while the negative angle influences nothing.

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:41 am 
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JugChoke, my education in mechanical engineering and my instinct have always suggested to me that negative constriction chokes were just a marketing gimmick (as well as rifled diffusion chokes). I deliberately made the question in very neutral terms to see what people said, giving the benefit of the doubt that perhaps there was some effect of the negative constriction choke that I was unaware of. (I don't know, maybe the negative constriction portion produces some sort of vacuum that sucks the petals to open faster).

I shoot a Beretta 682 Gold E that measures at the bore 0.730" and the Briley cylinder choke measures 0.733", giving me a negative 0.003" for my gun. Well, this choke produces very poor patterns, with many holes and flyers.

The Briley skeet choke measures 0.728", giving me a 0.002" constriction in my gun. This choke produces a very uniform pattern, despite the fact that the constriction is almost nothing.

In the past I owned a Beretta 686 skeet gun with factory fixed "Euro skeet" chokes of negative constriction (the bore opened up like a trumpet the last few inches). The patterns were also very poor, with many holes and flyers. I sold the gun.

This all seems to suggest that there needs to be a little bit of constriction to stabilize the shot charge.


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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:12 am 
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CD, and why am I not surprised? You are right on.

My favorite fun skeet gun has fixed chokes of about 3 or 4 and 5 or 6 thousandths of an inch. Fun skeet gun, because it is a Bernadelli, SXS hammer gun.

With your mech engineering back ground, have you considered the fact that all screw in type chokes will show some degree of jugchoking, due to the larger bore diameter at the mouth of the choke? They all, by necessity, have that increase in diameter to make sure that there is no way for the shot column to impact the front edge of the choke mouth during entry.

After that, even bringing it back to true bore diameter, constitutes just a bit of jugchoke.

I have "jugchoked", (just a tiny bit), on a number of cut-off barrels, to make them throw much better than cylinder bore patterns, without the trouble or expense of screw in chokes.

Even have a personal friend, (a small gun shop owner), that picked up an old Ithica Model 37, with a bulge in the barrel at about 16/17 inches. He had hoped to either find another barrel, or cut it to just over 18 inches for a home defense weapon. When he measured and found that the bulge was closer to the breech than 18 inches, he was lost. I just told him to cut it to the legal minimum and give it a try. It now produces about IC or light Mod patterns!

Clyde, (some times known as Side by Side Clyde)


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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:40 am 
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CD,

It is my understanding that negative contriction skeet chokes like the Beretta Euroskeet, or the Tula Choke (or retro-choke as it is called in the UK) were originally designed to be used with felt wadded cartridges.

I've made some pattern testing with a CYL choke in my gun and when shooting plastic cup wadded cartridges at 25 meters the patterns were uneven. When shooting felt wadded cartridges through the same choke the story was very different, the shot spread was wide and the pattern had a more even distribution.

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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:45 pm 
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I have some Factory Optima Extended Chokes like new, I will sell the set of 5 for 100.00
Reason for selling none of them measure the constriction they are listed at.
They are anywhere from .003 to .010 off.
I ordered A new set from Angle port for 125.00 for A set of 6 Cobra spreader,cyl,sk,ic,lm,mod
They measure exactly as they should. My 391 Gold Sport Optima measures .732 and they make their chokes to the Bore.

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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:17 am 
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Re. Magnus sport:
I wish that I lived a bit closer to you I'd buy your chokes off you.
But I do think that you are wasting your money.
Have you bothered to pattern your gun using your prefered cartridge at the exact distance you hope it will pattern your shot to what it says on your choke tube.
Then when a clay appears use a range finder to find the distance,then screw the appropriate choke in but you must shoot the clay at the exact place that you measured it at,not a foot closer or a foot farther away otherwise you will have the wrong choke in.
I know that I'm being sarcastic but this choke obsession is ridiculous.
If you change your type of cartridge,shot size,velocity nothing is the same as what it was.
The pattern will change without changing the choke.
I find that it's best to use just three chokes or maybe just two.
If you use three have one for close,anything under 25yards,1/4 choke is suitablefor this.
1/2 choke will kill anything to about 35 yards.
3/4 choke for anything else.
I shoot a 391 and if I have a close bird followed by a long crosser I would use a fibre wadded cartridge on the first one the second bird would be shot with a plastic wadded trap load through a 1/2 choke.
The fibre wad tends not to pattern as tight as plaswads.

Most shooters in the U.K. do not bother twiddling with chokes we have a look at the clay and just shoot it.
I used to shoot sporting with a 3/4 full fixed choke gun and my scores did not go down they went up,as did the concentration level.

If we have to shoot a driven clay,thats one that flies over your head at less than twenty feet if you have a 1/2 choke in your gun we just shoot it.
People bother too much about chokes when you should be concentrating on the clay,and where to shoot it.

The after market choke manufacturers must love you folks replacing the chokes that came with the gun for something that might not pattern as well as the original.
It might be the correct constriction at the muzzle but unless you take the time and effort to pattern your gun it's money wasted.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:44 am 
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old fart wrote:
The after market choke manufacturers must love you folks replacing the chokes that came with the gun for something that might not pattern as well as the original.
It might be the correct constriction at the muzzle but unless you take the time and effort to pattern your gun it's money wasted.


I think Crazy D made a perfectly reasonable request for input from people who might be able to shed some light. May I respectfully suggest that ranting about people who see things differently from oneself is not helpful.

CD: I haven't tested the negative choke but I'd bet that it only has any effect with light loads of small shot - say 1oz #9. I'll bet it would be fun to do some testing though.

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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:03 pm 
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My reply was to Magnus sport regarding his comments about optima chokes.
Nothing or nobody else was mentioned in my reply.
Oh, buy the way I do not rant at anyone either.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:52 pm 
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old fart wrote:
Re. Magnus sport:
Then when a clay appears use a range finder to find the distance,then screw the appropriate choke in but you must shoot the clay at the exact place that you measured it at,not a foot closer or a foot farther away otherwise you will have the wrong choke in.
I know that I'm being sarcastic but this choke obsession is ridiculous.
If you change your type of cartridge,shot size,velocity nothing is the same as what it was.
The pattern will change without changing the choke.
I find that it's best to use just three chokes or maybe just two.
If you use three have one for close,anything under 25yards,1/4 choke is suitablefor this.
1/2 choke will kill anything to about 35 yards.
3/4 choke for anything else.
I shoot a 391 and if I have a close bird followed by a long crosser I would use a fibre wadded cartridge on the first one the second bird would be shot with a plastic wadded trap load through a 1/2 choke.
The fibre wad tends not to pattern as tight as plaswads.

Most shooters in the U.K. do not bother twiddling with chokes we have a look at the clay and just shoot it.
People bother too much about chokes when you should be concentrating on the clay,and where to shoot it.

wasted.


Rant ~ "To declaim in a loud, pompous, self-important way"

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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:11 pm 
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No I don't rant but I did say that I was being sarcastic.

If I'd have said it "was tongue in cheek" it would have just meant the same.

I believe that you have shot a bit yourself and I bet a pound to a penny you don't twiddle with your chokes when you approach a stand.

You have to focus on the bird not think "have I got the correct choke in for this 45 yard crosser" when it might be only 40 yards away,then you have another think and all this thinking just cocks everything up.

If shooters just shot one gun with one choke and one type of cartridge all the time it's got to be easier to kill more clays.
There are no distractions. It's just you verses the clay.

Not much on tele is there!


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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:04 pm 
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Magnus,

I'm far from an expert but had an interesting patterning session the other day with a 682 and Angle Port extended tubes.

Found that my gun shot well lower than 50/50 at 22 yds with RP 1 1/8 oz #9's with the #5 (open) Angle Port tubes. Plus the pattern was more rectangular than round. (Five shots with each of my open tubes)

Replaced the angle port tubes with the factory mobil choke improved cylinder tube and had ROUND 50/50 patterns. Shot five or six shots with the stock tubes.

Hardly a scientific test eliminating all variables, at least 10 shots each tube, etc. But after two rds of skeet yesterday I'm shooting this gun 100% better. I have no idea if the AP tubes were fitted to the gun as I have no access to the original owner of the gun.

Possibly they were fitted to another gun?? Not an indictment on AP tubes either. But in MY gun they shoot way too low.

FN in MT


Last edited by FN in MT on Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:35 pm 
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OLD FART: I Personally don't consider 125.00 for 6 Quality Choke Tubes A waste of Money, Besides it is My Hard Earned Money not yours!

FN: I am not sure if you are talking about the Cobra fast Spread chokes or Cyl Chokes? The Cobra Choke may produce A Pattern like what you mentioned. You can measure your Bore Diameter to find out if Those Chokes are correct for your Gun or not.
Angle Port's Optima Chokes are Non Ported and produce nice round Patterns out of my 391 Gold Sport. I have not tried them in My SP3 yet. I know with the Factory IC in the Bottom Barrel and Factory Mod in the Top Barrel of My SP3 it Shoots about 6 inches low out of the Bottom Barrel, if I switch the Chokes It Shoots flat out of the Bottom Barrel or 50/50
I will get around to Patterning these Chokes in the SP3 one day it however has A .001 Smaller Bores than the 391 not that will make any Difference. My 391 Measures .732 and that is what the Angle Port Chokes are made for .732 They are stamped with the Bore Diameter and Constriction on the Outside of the Choke. And they all Measure Exactly the Constriction they are stamped with, And have Very Smooth Interiors. Now that is Quality Control. In Contrast My Factory Optima Chokes are A Joke The Cyl Choke witch should be the same as the Bore Measures .010 Constriction or IC. And The others are way off Also.
I Dont know how some or most of you feel but if I put in A IC I want to know it is A IC Choke not something in between or close to it.

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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:49 pm 
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Magnus, just for curiosity's sake, measure the breech end opening on those chokes. I would bet you will find the factory chokes at about .740, while the Angleports will be .750.

Thus with either, you are getting a bit of "jugchoke" added to whatever the constriction already is. Happens in all screw-ins, just has to, it is the nature of the beast. Some just more than others and AnglePort seems to use a larger opening at the breech end than most.

My AnglePorts are for the Crio Plus bore, which is .722, yet the breech end openings are .750 or larger. Then they do choke back down to the exact dimension called for on each constriction. Consistent, yes, relate to the the degree of choke intended, figuring in the jug effect, no.

Look at it this way: Screw in a cylinder choke that does match the bore diameter at it's muzzle. The charge of shot comes roaring down the bore, hits that .750 diameter area, spreads a bit, depending on the length of the oversized area, and then get compressed back to the original bore diameter. Bingo, a slight jugchoke, and a tighter than expected pattern for cylinder bore.

I find that the ammo makes way more difference in patterns, that is, different ammo out of the same choke will produce much more variation than, a few thousandths of an inch between different chokes.

However, if different chokes, same ammo, same barrel print to different points, then it seems most likely that the choke bore and the threads are on a slightly different axis on one of them. The third, (or more), chokes in the same hole, should tell the story here. I wouldn't rush to judgment with just testing two, which is actually wrong? Two of each brand, even better.

Problem with screw-ins, just so many things to go wrong! And as "Kirbeythegunsmith" says, it doesn't matter how high dollar the gun might be, it happens. First the relief hole's axis in the carrier barrel, and the same with the threads therein. That is besides the possibility mentioned above. The old solid, machined in the bore chokes really are much better in all respects, just not variable or changeable.

As I have stated on other threads, the best investment I have ever made as to choke alignment and point of impact checking, is my muzzle type laser bore sighter. It has never yet lied to me. What ever it has pointed out, patterns later proved to be true.

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:57 am 
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MagnusSport--I'd be interested in taking you up on your deal--let me know if you're serious about dumping your beretta chokes.

Thanks!!


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 Post subject: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:05 pm 
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I'm thinking $50 for the 5. I'll just try and make 'em work.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Beretta skeet vs cylinder
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:49 pm 
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coolbreeze01 wrote:
I'm thinking $50 for the 5. I'll just try and make 'em work.


Coolbreeze I would not sell you the Bands off of these Chokes for 50.00



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