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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:58 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 9:20 am
Posts: 140
Location: Castle Rock, CO
I am not about to modify a choke. My factory Optima HP IC had a terrible pattern. Shaped like a kidney. On terminal hold with Beretta who never returned my call. Terrible customer service. Love the gun but not the choke. Bought an IC Comp n choke and will never take it out.




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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:22 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:29 pm
Posts: 923
Location: Colorado
Another follow-up on this just to cloud the water for those searching this in the future. I got a Beretta factory flush LM for my A400. It measures .016 constriction. The Mod measures .021. The IC measures .008. The Full choke that I opened measures .012.

At 22 yards (just happens to be the distance when I set up the board), the difference in pattern size is no more than 1-2" per choke (I did not pattern the Mod). When staring at the patterns side by side, they truly don't look that different. The results were not what I expected.

For now, I'm leaving the factory LM in the gun and we'll see how it does on pheasants in KS this weekend. I'll shoot it this summer at clays and see if I see any difference between it an IC.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:04 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 9729
Location: Louisiana
Sounds like you've made yourself an improved improved cylinder or a light light modified. :wink:

Shoot at 35 or 40 yards and the difference in your chokes should be more apparent.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:10 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:29 pm
Posts: 923
Location: Colorado
lossking wrote:
Sounds like you've made yourself an improved improved cylinder or a light light modified. :wink:

Shoot at 35 or 40 yards and the difference in your chokes should be more apparent.


Agree on both counts. LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:47 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:23 pm
Posts: 15
I don't have a barrel caliper/optical caliper or anything similarly cool...but, I do have a standard, old school analog micrometer and caliper set...so, I used that. I figured that using a caliper with flats on it means that, at worst, I am getting the most narrow measurement possible...which, depending on the length of the parallel section, probably isn't much deviation. Now, about the carbon fouling in some of my chokes, that might be something else.

Edit #2: my assistant and I measured the IC twice (he's 18 months old, first time with a caliper)...LM is new and corrected!
Given that highly technical reasoning, I took a series of measurements of each of my chokes. Here is what I ended up with:
Cyl: avg .730, observed range of .729-.731 (fairly clean)
SK: avg .725, observed range of .724-.726 (fairly clean)
IC: avg .719, observed range of .719-.720 (x1 .720 measurement, clean)
LM: avg .713, observed range of .712-.713 (updated!, doh!, clean)
M: avg .709 (!), observed range of .709 (no deviation, somewhat clean)
IM: avg .703 (!), observed range of .703 (no deviation, somewhat clean)
F: avg .695, observed range of .694-.695 (fairly clean)

Some of those are right where one might expect, others (updated/edited) are close, but not exact. I doubled checked my Skeet choke, and it is indeed a bit tighter than spec. I also remeasured my Cylinder choke...it could be considered .731, but standard rounding rule for .7305 is to round to even. Of course, I still need to pattern these...so, time will tell on that. I wonder if getting the M and IM more than bore snake clean would make a difference there (doubled check these as well, most consistent measurement of all).

ETA: you know, if you measure all the other constrictions from Cylinder as a baseline, rather than the nominal bore diameter, they seem like they make more sense. Also, the bore measurement is...interesting because it exists nowhere in the actual bore except the portion immediately before the choke tube. So, perhaps Beretta's logic was that the cylinder choke IS the bore size as far as other constrictions are concerned.


Last edited by DJL2 on Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:14 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:47 am
Posts: 3510
Location: Dallas, TX
One of these days I'll set up some 40" paper and measure this correctly, at 40 yards. Living in the city with nowhere outdoor to freely shoot, I just don't have the means to pattern my shotguns well.

At the indoor range it's a pain dealing with large sheets of paper, no table to work on, and no bench rest or sand bags. Longing for land in the country....

DJL2, thanks for doing all the measuring and posting the results. Those numbers seemed pretty close to the numbers I posted a couple screens back.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:31 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:41 am
Posts: 92
Location: Central Florida
I found the Extended HP chokes threw much tighter patterns than the flush chokes - IC threw F at 40 yards (70%). See my post from a couple days ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:49 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Michigan
Send your chokes back to Beretta, they must be mismarked. I've patterned enough Beretta chokes over the years to know IC doesn't throw F patterns. The Beretta IC (both flush & extended) does work at yardage because they have a hot core, center hit the target and it breaks even though the fringe is gone.

but

Who knows, maybe Beretta is setting new standards on choke patterns and I'm the one getting bad chokes that throw old standards...????


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:43 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:47 am
Posts: 3510
Location: Dallas, TX
I opted to stick with the flush chokes and add to them since 1) they are Optima HP, and supposed to be good chokes, and 2) why dump money into more chokes when I can just fill out the set I have.

Sure it would be nice to have a color coded extended set, but I'd rather spend the money on ammo. :) If money was no object, I'd get a pair of Mullers in each size, U0 to U3. No need here for U4.

Since I usually know what I'm going to shoot before I get to the range, I usually have the chokes already installed that I'm going to use. If I have to change them at the car, it's a 3 minute job.

I'm going to have to get out my paper/patterns and look at them again. The flush HP's were all shot at 25 yards, maybe I can measure them to see how they all compared.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:56 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:23 pm
Posts: 15
Dallas,

I have been flummoxed by trying to get the Shotgun-Insight tool to work...all these security updates and patches make simple Java apps a real pain now. I have only done POI testing to this point (noted in another post, pleased with that generally). I suppose I ought to get started on a plan to pattern the chokes anyway. I will focus on the LM and IC I have, as well as the M and IM, just to tie their observed performance to the measurements. The C and SK are lower on the list because, honestly, I'm not sure it matters much for the ranges at which they're employed.

As to the choke measurements, that was one of the things that brought me to the forum...that info was hard to find out there in the wild. I notice that both our C chokes measured out a little larger than the nominal .728 inches. Likewise, both our M chokes measured out a little tighter than the nominal .712 inches. We bracket the nominal .726 inches for SK. That's all the English unit comparison...SI units are a different animal (for supposedly the same part). We did employ the same strategy - I started with five flush chokes, now I have seven just because I wanted to mess around without spending a gazillion dollars.

I cannot post a table to save my life, but I made one to compare all the published measurements with our own and the accepted standard. With the exception of the Skeet choke (and that could easily be a dimensional/rounding issue somewhere), the SI conversions are spot on for what seems to be industry standard when constriction is taken based on the Cyl choke rather than the nominal bore diameter. The SI conversion are also significantly different than the published Customary units. Well, I say significantly, but that's an interesting side discussion...what the patterning board ultimately tells us, I suppose.

If you were asking me to spec chokes out, as an Engineer, and you told me that industry standard was a .005 difference between constrictions, my initial thought would be I need to hold a tolerance that keeps my product within .001 thou of published for seven sigma. Ideally, I want +/-.0005, but I'd settle to keep the bean counters happy. My second thought would be that, without significant results I would be comfortable publishing, I absolutely should not do proprietary constrictions.

I wonder what the industry standard practice is for bore and choke tolerance. I wonder if I called someone like Muller or Trulock and say "You send me 10 chokes in the constriction I want, I keep the one I want, measure all of them and publish the results" would they be confident enough in their product to allow a small sample...which, honestly, they should be doing as a QA/QC measure anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:51 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:41 am
Posts: 92
Location: Central Florida
You gotta pattern all your chokes on paper at 20,30, and 40 yards. Take them home, count the holes and keep them for reference. Staring at a steel pattern plate, then covering it with grease and trying to remember what you saw 2 months later is difficult.

For another example my Extended Hp Cyl choke threw 70% patterns at 30 yards. That's what you'd expect from IC.

Though the Extended HP chokes patterned tighter than marked, their patterns were distributed more evenly than the Flush HP chokes.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:20 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 891
Location: Western Colorado
BigSkyDave wrote:
Staring at a steel pattern plate, then covering it with grease and trying to remember what you saw 2 months later is difficult.

Not a problem. Just take a photograph of the pattern after you shoot, then run a paint roller over the grease to erase and do it again. The photos are easily stored on your computer and can be viewed anytime. It's more convenient than trying to store and retrieve 40" x 40" sheets of paper.

_________________
"I always miss if I get a chance to take careful aim" (Pea Eye, in the movie Lonesome Dove)


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:07 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:47 am
Posts: 3510
Location: Dallas, TX
I can only guess that Beretta varies from published choke ID standards to achieve a certain pattern - which I assume would be the "standard" pattern (a percent at 40 yards) for a given choke. In other words, if the ID for an Optima HP Improved Cylinder choke is more constricted than industry standard, perhaps that's what's needed in an Optima HP choked gun to achieve the standard IC pattern. Problem is, that's not the results we're hearing from folks like BigSkyDave. Apparently they do vary a lot.

I really want to do some patterning now. They do have a plate at my shooting club, I just figured it would be a pain to use. I think they recommend spray paint for their board. I'd definitely bring a high-res camera!


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:29 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:23 pm
Posts: 15
I just checked the patterning setup at my local place. Seems like all I need is some good 40 inch wide paper and I will be ready to rock. They have paper, but it's recycled brown packing paper and it doesn't seem optimal (though it is free). That and to get my software issues sorted...computer aided pattern analysis good, me trying to count hundreds of holes per target and measure the deviation from point of aim to determine the pattern center and density...not good, not good at all. I will try to get to it this weekend - though only for one load, most likely - and do C, SK, IC, LM and M. Probably a total of 25 targets, five per choke. For the moment, I don't plan to pattern each barrel separately. I might shoot a second distance or run a second load through SK, LM and IM if time and resources permit.

Obviously, larger samples would be better in terms of determining average density and standard deviation...but, you know, at some point I like shooting at stuff that breaks. I do, however, want to compare against a set of extended chokes at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:53 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:41 am
Posts: 92
Location: Central Florida
Guess I'm old school with the paper vs. computer screen photo approach, or my computer screen is too small, but good luck counting 302 hits in a 30" circle (how you'd scribe a 30" circle on a computer screen is beyond me) so you could divide the 302 out of the 350 available shot in a 1 ounce load of 7 1/2s to come up with your percentage at 40 yards, or any other distance. But it's that percentage at a given distance that defines your choke, not whats printed on the choke.

An IC choke that smokes targets at 40 yards (my Extended HP IC choke shoots 70% at 40 yards) is not what I'm looking for in an IC choke. That's a full choke pattern. I have other chokes ie. the flush HP IM to handle those shots. I want my ICs to shoot their 70 %s at 30 yards like they're supposed to. So my Extended HP IC choke is actually a Full choke, and my Extended HP Cyl choke (which shoots 70% at 30 yards) is actually an IC choke, and a handicap at those damn close rabbits.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:44 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:39 pm
Posts: 18
Well I’m totally confused! I’ll have my DT11 tomorrow. Guess I’ll just try IC and Carlson lm first and go from there. I just ordered another beretta IC… some folks felt double IC was the way to go… really confused


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:41 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:22 pm
Posts: 11252
Location: Athens,TX.
Don't get all worked up EVERY course is different and all you'll get is everyones opinions If you want to know you'll need to do some pattern comparisons (I know some folks don't believe in it and that's fine :) ) You have to decide/figure out what you have confidence in.

Good luck - just go shoot and enjoy the new gun :)

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TSRA LIFE MEMBER
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Rose City Clays - Tyler TX
5H Shooting Sports Frankston TX ( Formally the Chicken Ranch)


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:16 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:39 pm
Posts: 18
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:13 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:39 pm
Posts: 18
Ok someone here please educate me on this. Beretta IC choke has a constriction of 0.719. Carlsons is 0.723. Beretta Lm is 0716 and carlsons is 0718. I realize the numbers are close but is it enough to see a difference under real shooting conditions? And by judging from these numbers what would your recommendation be for shooting sporting clays? Presentations at my club vary from 20 yards to 50 yards. For me it would seem double beretta IC chokes should to the trick. With the occasional longer shots we have I’d probably switch top barrel to a mod. But it’s going to a trial by fire and see what the double IC can do. Of course beretta says these numbers can vary due to machining etc…. Educated thoughts and opinions welcome! :wink:


Last edited by Johnnyblues on Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta Optima HP Chokes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:34 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:01 pm
Posts: 6899
There is no universal definition of terms like IC and Mod and LMod in terms of constriction. Constriction is the difference in 2 diameters which each may vary by .001" or a bit more so yes there can be some difference when trying to get .005 steps in constriction. The user is sorta on his own to check the subtle variations. I have patterned my Beretta Optima HP a bit with the IM and F chokes to check point of impact and barrel convergence. I shot a couple of patterns with the IC at 30 yards and thought the pattern looked fine. A pair of calipers is fine for comparing the internal diameter of chokes. But, measuring ID with calipers does not give an accurate internal diameter of the chokes Measuring is just ball park method of evaluating the very open chokes like skeet and IC. Shooting gives better results. For the open chokes the fit of the skirt to the bore often has as much effect on the pattern as the actual constriction.

I am shooting 1 oz reloads and I have the Optima IC and Mod chokes in the gun most of the time on sporting. I used the skeet a lot on the older MC choke gun I had before this gun. I can say that my IM and LF pattern tight and the LF is a little tighter than the IM and the Mod and IC are much more open. About all I need to know. That and how to center a target more often.

Practical difference in chokes? I do not know. I was going to order a LM but decided that since I only shoot 1 oz loads I might just stick with the Mod. Of course eventually I will give in to the urge. I like the flush chokes for weight and they are hard to change and I do not keep score so I then to go with what is in the gun unless a target sees "way out there" and I still often just figure I can not hit it anyway and shoot the mod at it.




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