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 Post subject: UPDATE on barrel regulation of new Etchen 687 SP III
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:23 pm 
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So as discussed previously elsewhere, I went to the pistol range today and shot paper targets at 16 yards today to determine the POIs and barrel regulation of my new gun. Unfortunately I didn't get a full choke tube with the gun. Beretta subbed a Skeet choke for the Full in the standard 5 choke set. So I had to use the Improved Modified tube for the measurements. Actually I used the 12 inch square 1 inch grids that I keep for zeroing my red dot pistol sights taped onto large sheets of paper. After three shots on fresh targets each time with the bottom barrel I found the average center at coordinates x=0.28, y=-0.5 and the top barrel showing a center at x=+1.65, y=+0.25. When you work out the length of that line between the two points, you get about 1.45 inches. So at 40 yards, the distance between the POIs of the two barrels is about 3.6 inches. I'm happy with that.



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Last edited by rpenmanparker on Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:21 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel registration measured on new Etchen 687 SP
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:43 pm 
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I think that's spot on for a double barrel scattergun. Congrats, should be a good shooter. By the way, I think you meant to say barrel regulation instead of registration?


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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel registration measured on new Etchen 687 SP
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:01 pm 
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Thank you for that. I certainly did mean regulation. Because both words seem appropriate to the concept, I have trouble remembering which one is right. I’m not proud of that but also not ashamed to admit it. I will edit the original post to avoid an onslaught of comments about it. Your correction is appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel regulation measured on new Etchen 687 SP II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:25 pm 
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Hated to mention it, but thought you'd want to get it right.


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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel regulation measured on new Etchen 687 SP II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:34 pm 
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:lol: You only have to register barrels in New York and California Robert.


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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel regulation measured on new Etchen 687 SP II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:42 pm 
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toptechX6 wrote:
:lol: You only have to register barrels in New York and California Robert.

That’s a good one. {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel regulation measured on new Etchen 687 SP II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:44 pm 
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rpenmanparker wrote:
toptechX6 wrote:
:lol: You only have to register barrels in New York and California Robert.

That’s a good one. {hs#


Glad to hear your new Beretta is shooting where it should, hope you are thrilled with the purchase! {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel regulation measured on new Etchen 687 SP II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:52 pm 
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toptechX6 wrote:
rpenmanparker wrote:
toptechX6 wrote:
:lol: You only have to register barrels in New York and California Robert.

That’s a good one. {hs#


Glad to hear your new Beretta is shooting where it should, hope you are thrilled with the purchase! {hs#

Yes, indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel regulation measured on new Etchen 687 SP II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:06 pm 
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I expected nothing less from Beretta :)

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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel regulation measured on new Etchen 687 SP II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:52 pm 
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Glad to hear that, You would almost think with the technology today , that might have been a problem in the past and not current production guns?.

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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel regulation measured on new Etchen 687 SP II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:57 pm 
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rbdjr wrote:
Glad to hear that, You would almost think with the technology today , that might have been a problem in the past and not current production guns?.

It reminds me of what Mark Twain said about watches: “A man who has a watch knows what time it is. A man who has two watches is never sure.”

Seems like it could be the same for barrels. Easy to get one to shoot where you want it to, but not so easy to get two barrels to shoot the same place. I’m sure things are getting better and better with less labor expended. Just glad mine is okay.

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Last edited by rpenmanparker on Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rough barrel regulation measured on new Etchen 687 SP II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:15 pm 
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Nice I like that.

" It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something."
F.D.R.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE on barrel regulation of new Etchen 687 SP III
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:33 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:51 pm
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Location: Houston, TX USA
Just for grins I used a laser boresight and supported my elbows on the hood of my car to get an alternative estimate of barrel regulation in my new Beretta. At 40 feet the spread was about 1.1 in or 3.3 in for 40 yards. Similar to the shooting measurement minus some shooter error.

But that suggested a question to me. Some expert please reply: Are the barrels SUPPOSED TO BE be perfectly parallel so that the 7/8 in separation between the centers of the 12 ga barrels should translate to 7/8 in difference in the POI of the patterns AT ANY DISTANCE? Or are the barrels not supposed to be parallel but regulated so that the POIs converge at say something like 30 or 40 yards making the separation of POIs always intended to be equal to OR LESS THAN the 7/8 in separation between the muzzles for any common shooting distance. Just wondering. I know that it doesn't really matter since the final results reflect neither of these possible goals. I would just like to know what the gun designer and maker are thinking.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE on barrel regulation of new Etchen 687 SP III
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:07 am 
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rpenmanparker wrote:
so that the POIs converge at say something like 30 or 40 yards


That is my understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE on barrel regulation of new Etchen 687 SP III
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:13 am 
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hopper810 wrote:
rpenmanparker wrote:
so that the POIs converge at say something like 30 or 40 yards


That is my understanding.

Thanks. That is good to know.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE on barrel regulation of new Etchen 687 SP III
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:40 pm 
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rpenmanparker wrote:
Just for grins I used a laser boresight and supported my elbows on the hood of my car to get an alternative estimate of barrel regulation in my new Beretta. At 40 feet the spread was about 1.1 in or 3.3 in for 40 yards. Similar to the shooting measurement minus some shooter error.

But that suggested a question to me. Some expert please reply: Are the barrels SUPPOSED TO BE be perfectly parallel so that the 7/8 in separation between the centers of the 12 ga barrels should translate to 7/8 in difference in the POI of the patterns AT ANY DISTANCE? Or are the barrels not supposed to be parallel but regulated so that the POIs converge at say something like 30 or 40 yards making the separation of POIs always intended to be equal to OR LESS THAN the 7/8 in separation between the muzzles for any common shooting distance. Just wondering. I know that it doesn't really matter since the final results reflect neither of these possible goals. I would just like to know what the gun designer and maker are thinking.

The centerlines of both bores in a O/U are not parallel to each other. A fact that you can easily prove to yourself by measuring the distance between the barrel tubes at the muzzle and the distance between the two at the chamber. If you have a caliper set, measure the distance between the Barrels and the distance that is between the outer edge of the bores. Add them together and divide by two. Do that on both ends of the barrel assembly. That will tell you the centerline spacing at each end.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE on barrel regulation of new Etchen 687 SP III
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:53 pm 
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Curly N wrote:
rpenmanparker wrote:
Just for grins I used a laser boresight and supported my elbows on the hood of my car to get an alternative estimate of barrel regulation in my new Beretta. At 40 feet the spread was about 1.1 in or 3.3 in for 40 yards. Similar to the shooting measurement minus some shooter error.

But that suggested a question to me. Some expert please reply: Are the barrels SUPPOSED TO BE be perfectly parallel so that the 7/8 in separation between the centers of the 12 ga barrels should translate to 7/8 in difference in the POI of the patterns AT ANY DISTANCE? Or are the barrels not supposed to be parallel but regulated so that the POIs converge at say something like 30 or 40 yards making the separation of POIs always intended to be equal to OR LESS THAN the 7/8 in separation between the muzzles for any common shooting distance. Just wondering. I know that it doesn't really matter since the final results reflect neither of these possible goals. I would just like to know what the gun designer and maker are thinking.

The centerlines of both bores in a O/U are not parallel to each other. A fact that you can easily prove to yourself by measuring the distance between the barrel tubes at the muzzle and the distance between the two at the chamber. If you have a caliper set, measure the distance between the Barrels and the distance that is between the outer edge of the bores. Add them together and divide by two. Do that on both ends of the barrel assembly. That will tell you the centerline spacing at each end.

That helps. Thanks, Curly.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE on barrel regulation of new Etchen 687 SP III
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:04 am 
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rpenmanparker wrote:
Just for grins I used a laser boresight and supported my elbows on the hood of my car to get an alternative estimate of barrel regulation in my new Beretta. At 40 feet the spread was about 1.1 in or 3.3 in for 40 yards. Similar to the shooting measurement minus some shooter error.

But that suggested a question to me. Some expert please reply: Are the barrels SUPPOSED TO BE be perfectly parallel so that the 7/8 in separation between the centers of the 12 ga barrels should translate to 7/8 in difference in the POI of the patterns AT ANY DISTANCE? Or are the barrels not supposed to be parallel but regulated so that the POIs converge at say something like 30 or 40 yards making the separation of POIs always intended to be equal to OR LESS THAN the 7/8 in separation between the muzzles for any common shooting distance. Just wondering. I know that it doesn't really matter since the final results reflect neither of these possible goals. I would just like to know what the gun designer and maker are thinking.


Ideally the barrels should be regulated so the patterns converge at 40 yards. Obviously, it's more difficult to make two barrels hit the same 40 yd. POI than it is to make a single barrel gun do it. This is one of the reasons why good double guns cost more than good autoloaders or pump guns.

Your SP lll is spot on, so you can't blame the gun if you miss. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE on barrel regulation of new Etchen 687 SP III
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:19 am 
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lossking wrote:
rpenmanparker wrote:
Just for grins I used a laser boresight and supported my elbows on the hood of my car to get an alternative estimate of barrel regulation in my new Beretta. At 40 feet the spread was about 1.1 in or 3.3 in for 40 yards. Similar to the shooting measurement minus some shooter error.

But that suggested a question to me. Some expert please reply: Are the barrels SUPPOSED TO BE be perfectly parallel so that the 7/8 in separation between the centers of the 12 ga barrels should translate to 7/8 in difference in the POI of the patterns AT ANY DISTANCE? Or are the barrels not supposed to be parallel but regulated so that the POIs converge at say something like 30 or 40 yards making the separation of POIs always intended to be equal to OR LESS THAN the 7/8 in separation between the muzzles for any common shooting distance. Just wondering. I know that it doesn't really matter since the final results reflect neither of these possible goals. I would just like to know what the gun designer and maker are thinking.


Ideally the barrels should be regulated so the patterns converge at 40 yards. Obviously, it's more difficult to make two barrels hit the same 40 yd. POI than it is to make a single barrel gun do it. This is one of the reasons why good double guns cost more than good autoloaders or pump guns.

Your SP lll is spot on, so you can't blame the gun if you miss. :wink:


Thanks for the information. Based on that a small fraction of the vertical component of the distance between the POIs at 40 ft can be subtracted since it would disappear at 40 yards, basically 1/3 of 7/8 inch (the distance between the muzzle centers? or a little under 1/3 of an inch. So that would make the distance between the POIs 3X the reduced number at 40 yards or 7/8 inch smaller in the vertical direction. No big deal really, just nice to know.

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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE on barrel regulation of new Etchen 687 SP III
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:37 pm 
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The patterns are big enough to wash out that small difference, I think, especially at 30 -40 yards.




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