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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:41 pm 
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paracord wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
paracord wrote:
skar wrote:
Balance


What do those 100 straight skeet guys do when then put tubes in their guns? They balance 6 miles ahead of the hinge pin.

Do they fret and put a pound of lead in the stock?


They balance the gun with the tubes. Then they use a clamp on barrel weight or have a 2nd set of 12ga barrels when they shoot 12ga. Most competition american skeet guns will way somewhere near the hinge pin either way.


Tubed guns balance way ahead of the hinge pin.

They add weight so the light 12 ga barrels also balance way off the pin like the tubes or they just shoot 20 ga in the 12 ga events.


This is not correct at all. 20 year NSSA member with 57600 lifetime targets having shot all over the eastern half of the country.

Every competitor I'm aware of shoots a gun that is slightly one side or the other of the hinge pin WITH subgauge tubes, I'm not aware of ANY who's balance point is "way ahead of the hinge pin". Even the guys shooting 14-16lb guns (yes, they exist) are still balanced in roughly the same spot.

My own gun, while it weighs over 10.5lb, is actually balanced a bit BEHIND the hinge pin with tubes or a barrel weight, and it's WAY behind the hinge pin without either.



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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:27 pm 
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Quote:
This is not correct at all. 20 year NSSA member with 57600 lifetime targets having shot all over the eastern half of the country.

Every competitor I'm aware of shoots a gun that is slightly one side or the other of the hinge pin WITH subgauge tubes, I'm not aware of ANY who's balance point is "way ahead of the hinge pin". Even the guys shooting 14-16lb guns (yes, they exist) are still balanced in roughly the same spot.

My own gun, while it weighs over 10.5lb, is actually balanced a bit BEHIND the hinge pin with tubes or a barrel weight, and it's WAY behind the hinge pin without either.


What in the world do you have in the back of the gun then? Tubes weigh 12-14oz and almost all of that extra weight is out front of the hinge. I just checked mine with ultralites installed and it balances more than an inch in front of the pin and I have a heavy recoil reducer on the stock!

Skeet shooters always talk about tubes being the reason for better shooting nowadays because they add weight in front vs the old multi barrel sets and “steady out the swing”

Are you sure you’re talking about full length tubes? If so then you must have an anchor in the stock.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:38 pm 
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Yes, full length tubes.

Precision Fit Stock w/ 4oz weight. If I had a wood stock it would likely balance on the hinge or a TINY bit in front.

Adjustable combs, adjustable pads, and stock weights are all used to balance out the gun, and custom stocks have the same effect. If you have a field gun or something with no comb, no pad, and a hollowed out stock, I could see it being front heavy.

A standard Kolar, Krieghoff, or Perazzi with subgauge tubes will balance on the hinge.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:56 pm 
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Skeet shooters are not just shooting w/tubes in their 12ga barrel.
Their using a carrier barrel that is much lighter for their tubes. Most are probably match weighted to their 12ga barrel.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:01 pm 
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JoM wrote:
Skeet shooters are not just shooting w/tubes in their 12ga barrel.
Their using a carrier barrel that is much lighter for their tubes. Most are probably match weighted to their 12ga barrel.


Some yes, some no. I would guess carrier barrel shooters are b/w 5-10% Most don't want to spend another $2-6k for a 2nd barrel.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:43 pm 
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JoM wrote:
Skeet shooters are not just shooting w/tubes in their 12ga barrel.
Their using a carrier barrel that is much lighter for their tubes. Most are probably match weighted to their 12ga barrel.


The vast, vast majority are not using carrier barrels. They are putting Briley ultralights in standard 12 ga barrels.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:47 pm 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
Yes, full length tubes.

Precision Fit Stock w/ 4oz weight. If I had a wood stock it would likely balance on the hinge or a TINY bit in front.

Adjustable combs, adjustable pads, and stock weights are all used to balance out the gun, and custom stocks have the same effect. If you have a field gun or something with no comb, no pad, and a hollowed out stock, I could see it being front heavy.

A standard Kolar, Krieghoff, or Perazzi with subgauge tubes will balance on the hinge.


Absurd. I have a an early DT10 with 1.55 kg (light!) barrels and a lot of weight out back with a recoil reduction system and it still balances well forward of the hinge. You’re adding almost a pound with tubes in front of the hinge!

No stock target gun is going to balance at the pin when you add full length tubes. Come on now.

If a standard k gun or perazzi balances on the hinge with an extra pound up front then out of the box you’re basically saying they balance way behind the pin?! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:40 am 
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paracord wrote:
No stock target gun is going to balance at the pin when you add full length tubes. Come on now.

If a standard k gun or perazzi balances on the hinge with an extra pound up front then out of the box you’re basically saying they balance way behind the pin?!


Quite likely. A lot depends on the specific stock design and density of the wood. Add an adjustable comb, adjustable pad, and perhaps a little weight in the stock, and it is quite easy to make a tubed gun balance on the hinge. As for your particular setups I have no clue, but take any out of the box purpose-setup Kolar, Krieghoff, or Perazzi, put the tubes in, and it'll come damn close to balancing on the hinge (which is a misnomer anyways since the hinge pin in is different places on different actions, but that's a different discussion).

The extra weight in the barrels does add weight and mass up front, but doesn't have as much effect on the actual balance point of the gun as you'd think, since the center of gravity is 2/3 to 4/5 of the way to the chamber for the tubes, meaning the center of gravity of the tubes is closer to the center of gravity of the gun than you're giving it credit for. I believe you're confusing "balance point" (fulcrum) with "swing" (moment of inertia). Tubes change how the gun swings, but have less of an effect on the balance point than you'd expect.

I just pulled my gun out of the safe. The difference in balance point between tubes and no tubes is under 1" (with tubes, it's about 3/4" behind the hinge). So you're basically looking at about 1" of balance point movement, so even if you're at the pin to start with, you're ending 1" in front, which certainly doesn't seem to equate to "way ahead of the hinge pin" or "6 miles ahead of the hinge pin" in my mind.

My friends K80 Pro Skeet with std 732 bore, fixed skeet chokes, and Briley Ultralites balances on the hinge with both the TSK or Wenig stock he's used (no weight added to either).

Call them or any dealers and ask where a skeet gun with subgauge tubes balances. I'll put $ on NOT "way ahead of the hinge pin" or "6 miles ahead of the hinge pin".

Like I said before, I've never met a single shooter, all the way from AAA to E class, that shoots with a gun that has the balance point "significantly" ahead of the hinge pin (which I interpret to mean 4-6+"), some like front heavy, some like back heavy, some like in the middle. If the gun doesn't balance how they want with tubes, the rebalance it with the tubes in (usually weight in the stock), then either use 20ga tubes for 12ga or a barrel weight.

Hell, I'm not even sure how you'd get a balance point that extremely in front of the hinge pin, maybe with a set of K80 heavy barrels, with weights, with tubes, and a light stock...

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:55 am 
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Yes they fit the 694
But thanks .

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:12 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
paracord wrote:
No stock target gun is going to balance at the pin when you add full length tubes. Come on now.

If a standard k gun or perazzi balances on the hinge with an extra pound up front then out of the box you’re basically saying they balance way behind the pin?!


Quite likely. A lot depends on the specific stock design and density of the wood. Add an adjustable comb, adjustable pad, and perhaps a little weight in the stock, and it is quite easy to make a tubed gun balance on the hinge. As for your particular setups I have no clue, but take any out of the box purpose-setup Kolar, Krieghoff, or Perazzi, put the tubes in, and it'll come damn close to balancing on the hinge (which is a misnomer anyways since the hinge pin in is different places on different actions, but that's a different discussion).

The extra weight in the barrels does add weight and mass up front, but doesn't have as much effect on the actual balance point of the gun as you'd think, since the center of gravity is 2/3 to 4/5 of the way to the chamber for the tubes, meaning the center of gravity of the tubes is closer to the center of gravity of the gun than you're giving it credit for. I believe you're confusing "balance point" (fulcrum) with "swing" (moment of inertia). Tubes change how the gun swings, but have less of an effect on the balance point than you'd expect.

I just pulled my gun out of the safe. The difference in balance point between tubes and no tubes is under 1" (with tubes, it's about 3/4" behind the hinge). So you're basically looking at about 1" of balance point movement, so even if you're at the pin to start with, you're ending 1" in front, which certainly doesn't seem to equate to "way ahead of the hinge pin" or "6 miles ahead of the hinge pin" in my mind.

My friends K80 Pro Skeet with std 732 bore, fixed skeet chokes, and Briley Ultralites balances on the hinge with both the TSK or Wenig stock he's used (no weight added to either).

Call them or any dealers and ask where a skeet gun with subgauge tubes balances. I'll put $ on NOT "way ahead of the hinge pin" or "6 miles ahead of the hinge pin".

Like I said before, I've never met a single shooter, all the way from AAA to E class, that shoots with a gun that has the balance point "significantly" ahead of the hinge pin (which I interpret to mean 4-6+"), some like front heavy, some like back heavy, some like in the middle. If the gun doesn't balance how they want with tubes, the rebalance it with the tubes in (usually weight in the stock), then either use 20ga tubes for 12ga or a barrel weight.

Hell, I'm not even sure how you'd get a balance point that extremely in front of the hinge pin, maybe with a set of K80 heavy barrels, with weights, with tubes, and a light stock...


no one ever said 4-6" in front of the pin. an inch or two, yes. Quite simply: There is no out-of-the-box sporter that is going to balance on the pin when you put a pound of tubes in the barrels. That would mean it came from the factory significantly balanced behind the pin, and none of them are set up that way.

I think the main point of this thread is that the OP was looking to "balance the gun on the pin." I was just saying there is no real rule that requires you to do that and many very good shooters use guns that balance significantly (inch or two) behind or in front of the pin.

Beretta takes a lot of effort to make nice, light barrels and then we go and dumb them down by stuffing lead weights into the forearm just to chase some magical "balance" point that likely will make no difference on targets. It's like buying a Ferrari and then putting a couple sand bags in the trunk because the "balance is off." :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:05 am 
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I guess to my mind these statements are completely incongruent:

paracord wrote:
no one ever said 4-6" in front of the pin. an inch or two, yes.


And

paracord wrote:
they balance 6 miles ahead of the hinge pin.

paracord wrote:
Tubed guns balance way ahead of the hinge pin.


I still believe you'd be EXTREMELY hard pressed to find any NSSA shooters who's balance point is an inch or two in front of the hinge.

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http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:40 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
I guess to my mind these statements are completely incongruent:

paracord wrote:
no one ever said 4-6" in front of the pin. an inch or two, yes.


And

paracord wrote:
they balance 6 miles ahead of the hinge pin.

paracord wrote:
Tubed guns balance way ahead of the hinge pin.


I still believe you'd be EXTREMELY hard pressed to find any NSSA shooters who's balance point is an inch or two in front of the hinge.


Why do you think people go to all the expense and trouble of having carrier barrels made then? They ream 5 or 6 ounces out of the barrel set to sort of offset all the weight that 13 ounces of tubes create.

Is that because they AREN'T trying to make the gun less muzzle heavy?


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:12 am 
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paracord wrote:

Why do you think people go to all the expense and trouble of having carrier barrels made then? They ream 5 or 6 ounces out of the barrel set to sort of offset all the weight that 13 ounces of tubes create.

Is that because they AREN'T trying to make the gun less muzzle heavy?


Like I said before, balance point and dynamics ("muzzle heavy") are related, but are NOT the same thing.

The measurable difference with or without tubes is going to be about 1", which is not that much when you consider a 50"ish overall length, meaning a balance point move of 2%. However, the moment of inertia is going to be quite different between the two.

This is the same reason why an extra ounce of extended choke at the muzzle is going to have a much larger impact on how the gun moves/feels than if you add an ounce of weight under the forend.

Conversely, there are people who tube a regular 12ga barrel as their baseline, then use a heavy barrel (Krieghoff, Perazzi, Blaser) or barrel weights to replicate the tubed standard barrel.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:35 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
paracord wrote:
skar wrote:
Balance


What do those 100 straight skeet guys do when then put tubes in their guns? They balance 6 miles ahead of the hinge pin.

Do they fret and put a pound of lead in the stock?


They balance the gun with the tubes. Then they use a clamp on barrel weight or have a 2nd set of 12ga barrels when they shoot 12ga. Most competition american skeet guns will way somewhere near the hinge pin either way.


Briley ultralight tubes weigh in at up to 12 ounces PER TUBE. This means that they add well over a full pound to the barrels. The really serious shooters will go with lightened Receiver barrels and typically will add weight to the stock. BTW, in many cases an adjustable comb kit and adjustable butt pad will add enough weight to get it close. Downside to going with a receiver barrel is that for 12 gauge you either have to have a second gun or get lucky and find a barrel set to have fitted to your gun.

Less serious shooters such as myself just adapt to shooting with a barrel heavy gun. Skeet is sport where break points are pretty near set in stone so the barrel movement at each station is limited to a predefined motion and poor gun balance can be compensated for by adjusting the hold points and "muscling" the gun. BTW, I'm not saying Skeet is easy because it's NOT, any deviation in those predefined paths or timing adds up to a Loss. In addition the effect of wind can send the best laid plans for the break point up in smoke.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:04 am 
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scooter123 wrote:
Briley ultralight tubes weigh in at up to 12 ounces PER TUBE.


This is simply not true. I doubt you'd even get Match Weight tubes, for a 34" barrel, close to 12oz per tube. Tube sets generally weigh 14-16oz per PAIR.

scooter123 wrote:
The really serious shooters will go with lightened Receiver barrels


This isn't necessarily true either. Carrier barrels are relatively uncommon, and even more uncommon for people that shoot 20ga in the 12ga event.

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Ian Smingler
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http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:27 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
scooter123 wrote:
Briley ultralight tubes weigh in at up to 12 ounces PER TUBE.


This is simply not true. I doubt you'd even get Match Weight tubes, for a 34" barrel, close to 12oz per tube. Tube sets generally weigh 14-16oz per PAIR.

scooter123 wrote:
The really serious shooters will go with lightened Receiver barrels


This isn't necessarily true either. Carrier barrels are relatively uncommon, and even more uncommon for people that shoot 20ga in the 12ga event.


Shooting 20 in the 12 is not even rare on this message board. Todd Bender himself does it because he doesn’t shoot a carrier barrel.

See here:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... &view=next


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:27 pm 
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paracord wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
scooter123 wrote:
Briley ultralight tubes weigh in at up to 12 ounces PER TUBE.


This is simply not true. I doubt you'd even get Match Weight tubes, for a 34" barrel, close to 12oz per tube. Tube sets generally weigh 14-16oz per PAIR.

scooter123 wrote:
The really serious shooters will go with lightened Receiver barrels


This isn't necessarily true either. Carrier barrels are relatively uncommon, and even more uncommon for people that shoot 20ga in the 12ga event.


Shooting 20 in the 12 is not even rare on this message board. Todd Bender himself does it because he doesn’t shoot a carrier barrel.

See here:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... &view=next


You've misread what I wrote. What I said is that it is uncommon for people that shoot 20ga in the 12ga event to do so with a carrier barrel.

Todd shoots a 32" standard weight step rib barrel with Briley tubes.

He's shot a 32" weighted step rib barrel that has weights to match his tubed barrel in 12ga and doubles for quite a while (at least through World 2018 which is the last photo or video I can find of him shooting 12ga), and I believe is still using that setup.

He also shot a 1187 for 12ga and doubles at one point, which I believe is what he had his perfect year with in 1991.

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Ian Smingler
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta 694 balance how stock or barrel weights
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:53 pm 
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I’m a idiot . I sending back the magnet weights . They worked nice but found out I could take weights
Out of the stock to balance. Now I can keep it at normal weight .



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