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 Post subject: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:14 pm
Posts: 6
I recently acquired a 1915 Ithaca Flues SxS, 12 ga., the barrels are marked "Krupp Fluid Steel". The chambers are 2-3/4" depth. I recognize that I can't shoot 4 dram equivalent turkey loads out of this shotgun. I found RST's website and have looked at the loadings they offer that are appropriate for my gun, many of which are 1 oz. loads. By today's standards they are equivalent to 20 ga. ammunition. No problem, the Flues is a (relatively) light gun and often as not I was hunting with a 20 ga. before I bought it.

RST's loads are fine, and I'll probably end up buying a case to shoot some informal trap with. But, I like to load my own ammo. Am I correct in saying that 2-1/2 and 2-3/4 D.E. loads are OK with today's powders? I generally use Red Dot for my 12 ga. loads, and it's been around for 100 years or so. I do not need magnum ammo. I would like to be able to load 1-1'4 oz. shot loads if I can safely do so. Your recommendations are appreciated.




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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
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If you can find some 4756 or some 7625 or even some Win 471 (HS 7). They were all low pressure powders. Barring that, take a look at Blue Dot loads.

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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:09 am
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I suggest not going over 1 ounce loads in your Flues.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
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ithacanut wrote:
I suggest not going over 1 ounce loads in your Flues.
Me, too.

American Select is the powder I chose for 7/8ths ounce loads. 6,000 psi or thereabouts.

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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
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Win571 (HS-7) - there's a typo in the above post.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:39 pm 
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Yes, thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:30 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:14 pm
Posts: 6
Thanks to all, I appreciate your input.

Let me clarify my original query; As far as chamber pressure is concerned, the payload weight is of no consequence as long as pressure is safe, yes?

If so, what pressure level was this gun built to be used at, back in the day?

Dram equivalent rating? 2-1/2, 2-3/4, 3, more?


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
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I don't think you'll find any 1 1/4 ounce loads that aren't fairly high pressure. Pressure is the only thing that imparts velocity to the shot and wad and the more the shot weighs, the more pressure it takes to get it up to speed.

There's also the matter of recoil. The stock is as old as the barrels and it may not be as strong as it once was, either.

Just my opinion, lower pressure and lower recoil are what a 100+ year old gun needs.

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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
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Location: Central NH
BBshot wrote:
Thanks to all, I appreciate your input.

Let me clarify my original query; As far as chamber pressure is concerned, the payload weight is of no consequence as long as pressure is safe, yes?

If so, what pressure level was this gun built to be used at, back in the day?

Dram equivalent rating? 2-1/2, 2-3/4, 3, more?

Reduced from modern loading chamber pressure is only important if the gun was designed for black powder. Recoil, payload and velocity, are the factors in control in a 100 year old gun.That is what breaks stocks, so 1 oz or even less, payloads are important.

The other gents here that are more familiar with the Flues can advise if it was designed for black powder.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:03 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
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Location: WA/AK
My favorite 12-gauge load for high volume shooting in my vintage doubles is the Remington STS or Gun Club hull, Remington 209P primer, 16.4 grains of Clays, Remington TGT12S or ClayBuster equivalent and 7/8 ounce of shot. This load is listed in the loading manuals at 1200 fps and 6300 psi. I know they are expensive, and probably hard to find right now, but I have found that Remington primers eliminate any firing pin dragging problems in my vintage doubles. Winchester 209s seem to be terrible in that respect.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:22 am
Posts: 66
Researcher01 you are the second poster that I have read tonight that referred to primer dragging on vintage doubles, in my case a 20 gauge NID. It's sort of a new gun to me and today I shot Federal and I believe thats what I was experiencing. I hope that's it because it will save me visit to gunsmith. I'll try some remington this week and check for difference. I'm also going to seek out a 20 gauge version of your low pressure Remington recipe.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:04 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:00 pm
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Zbignew and painter* are spot on about the weakness of stocks on some vintage doubles. This is especially true for the Flues due to the lack of a longitudinal bolt to secure the action to the butt stock.

The Flues design relies on vertical clamp pressure only between the upper and lower tangs to retain the butt stock. The weakness of this design is amplified by oil-soaked wood found in most Flues. A telltale sign is incipient cracks or missing wood on either side of the upper tang at the top, combined with a loose-fitting butt stock. If this is the case, it will only get worse with use. Keeping payload and recoil down will extend the life of these great old guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:55 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
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Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
Reproofing is the most definitive test but a through evaluation by a competent gunsmith with a specialty in vintage shotguns is also a good plan. I have some 14+ SXS shotguns in my safe. The oldest is a pre- 1913 LC Smith & the newest was made in the last 10 years. The pre 1913 Elsie is among the strongest! Old 100 + yo wood is can be fragile. 3 of my Elsies have been restocked. Where there is a will, there is often a way. I have less than $300 bucks in any stock. A LC Smith expert once told me that if you keep the stock screws tight, it is far less likely you will have stock problems. Some of the stock repair experts can perform miracles. Penetrating epoxy & reinforcing actions & locks with epoxy bedding can cure a lot of problems. The biggest cause of failure I have seen is improper maintenance resulting in oil soaked wood, among other things. Recoil does more damage than pressure. Yes, pressure is what makes things happen but what pressure & where? Published pressure is chamber pressure, the pressure curve defines the internal ballistics of a load. I generally gravitate to loads with lower chamber pressures. Not because I am afraid of a blow up but because higher pressure puts greater stress on parts & tends to shorten service life!


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 Post subject: Re: Ammo Recommendations For Vintage Guns
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:16 pm
Posts: 3421
Location: New England
painter* wrote:

Reduced from modern loading chamber pressure is only important if the gun was designed for black powder.

The other gents here that are more familiar with the Flues can advise if it was designed for black powder.




Although designed for smokeless powder, keep in mind that the reason the Flues was discontinued in 1926 in favor of the heavier-built NID was the changes ammo manufacturers made to shotgun ammo.


.



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