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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:51 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8519
Location: Maryland
As Old Cowboy mentioned, Madis is incorrect in his statement on page 73 which I just reread. The "Simmons Patented" marking and the "Simmons Gun Specialties Kansas City, MO" markings are not to be found on factory Model 12s and the difference of the two markings on Simmons ribbed guns and Model 42s is a function of the era of manufacture, not where the rib parts were installed. The Simmons Patented is the earlier mark, the Simmons Gun Specialties marking is the later. As far as recent research is concerned Winchester did all Model 12 rib installations at New Haven. The Model 42 is a different situation, factory guns having had ribs installed at Simmons in eras later than the donut post era. Schwing correctly explains this. I just reread Madis on ribs and he is definitely a must read for Winchester Model 12 and 42 collectors. Madis gives extensive basic information and his book has much to offer. He had access to Winchester employees and the Winchester Museum collection which added to the charm of his books.




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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:38 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:37 am
Posts: 526
Location: California
lowgun wrote:
fnj, As I remember, you have some nice Winchester guns. You should invest in some books. I can't imagine someone spending serious money on Winchester collector guns without the assistance of Riffle's book, or Schwing's excellent research. The books come first, the guns come next.


Lowgun, thanks for the bashing and noticing that I do have some nice Winchester guns.

Remember that it was I who referred to the Schwing book to clarify a previously made statement in the 42 discussion we had.

Getting nice guns didn't come without some knowledge. It came from years of observation, the understanding of Winchester history and eras of production, interviewing many collectors and researchers, and, of course, asking many questions. The part you might not know is that all of my M-12 guns came before the time Riffle wrote his book and with the help of Madis and the other serious collectors. The Schwing book did help me confirm the originality of 42s.
I would say that your statement of buying the books before the piece is a good one. Which books one buys is still questionable. Understanding what one reads is critical. Having the guidance and patience of a serious knowledgeable collector with an open mind and willing to share information is priceless.
I do not believe Riffle is the know all end all that you believe he is.
Enough Said.


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:22 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 pm
Posts: 3832
Location: The Republic of Texas
fnj682 wrote:
I do not believe Riffle is the know all end all that you believe he is.


Madis, as good as he was, was not the know all end all either.


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:11 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:37 am
Posts: 526
Location: California
Ole Cowboy, you could be right. Like it was mentioned sometime before....History gets rewritten. With the M-12 and no factory documentation, you never truly know.


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:23 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:38 pm
Posts: 30
Thanks guys I did not want b***h fit. Just wanted the truth. I'm working on a book take a look at my next post,


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:15 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8519
Location: Maryland
Admittedly Dave Riffle did not fill his book with technical data but his knowledge about Winchester pump guns surpasses that of most collectors. Too bad he didn't put it all in the book. Dave has owned and sold more Winchester pump guns than any man alive and is still at it. I saw him last month at the Vintagers and he had a full house. His book is a must read regardless of its omissions. The West books are also a good source of information on all Winchesters, not just Model 12s.


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:58 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:37 am
Posts: 526
Location: California
Sx1skeet,
congratulations on taking on your new task. I wish you and your wife all the best on your information journey. Lets us know when you get it finished.


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:29 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Riverview, Michigan
I have a 1924 model 12 with a simmons rib marked simmons rib specialies inc. kansas city,mo . I also have the model 12 book by george madis and I read page 37 but page 56 makes more sence to me .


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:11 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:37 am
Posts: 526
Location: California
howitzer wrote:
I have a 1924 model 12 with a simmons rib marked simmons rib specialies inc. kansas city,mo . I also have the model 12 book by george madis and I read page 37 but page 56 makes more sence to me .


howitzer,
page 37 is in reference to the original Winchester installed milled rib (2 pin). The Simmons rib came into production in the mid 40s (page56). Knowing this tells you that a Simmons rib on a 1924 gun was not a factory installation at the time of original production. Most likely the gun was sent back to Simmons at a latter date for the rib installation. Hope this helps you understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:52 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Riverview, Michigan
Thanks for answering me back . The rib has two ivory pins and it has the front and rear and middle dove tail milled on the barrel to attach the oblong post but the rear stock is not from the factory is a monte carlo with a raised check for a right handed shooter it is sanbasted on top of the receiver for a matt finish the markings of the gun are real sharp the bluing is 98% good probaly a good shooter not for collecting .


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:29 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:51 pm
Posts: 58
Interesting thread! Thank You all.

Do I have one of the Simmons Marketed guns?

its serial is 1,770, range.

I tried for good pics, Failed miserably.
Rib is marked "Simmons Gun Specialties"~~~ patended
Barrel is marked WS1 but no proof showing.
Cutts gun.


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Thanks in advance:

Gooser


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:26 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:51 pm
Posts: 58
Researcher01 wrote:
A gun in the 1,680,xxx range would be from early 1956. Was Simmons marketting Winchesters they finished up that early? My Simmons catalogues are from the 1960s --

Image



Researchers excellent information is very interesting to me.

If you notice, the 20 gauge was offered with the Cutts system. Reaserchers Advertisement is from a Simmons catalogue.

My gun is correct for serial #. Has the WS1 choke marking, though I cant see evidence of a previouse solid rib that was removed. the Simmons markinghowever doesnt state "Olathe"
I'm curious now! What do I have?
Do you guys feel it is of any collector value?
It is in pretty good shape, I have used it as a shooter.
I get made fun of horribly when I take it to the range cause of the "pickle" on the end of the barrel.
The comments stop, after I shoot it a bit!
What do you all feel this gun is worth?

I noticed the thread seemed to die, I understand you all may be tired of discussing. I was hoping for Old Cowboys or Researches input.

Thanks

Gooser


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:00 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8519
Location: Maryland
Htdog, your gun is, as you suggest, a "Simmons marketed" gun. The reason your gun does not show the remnants of a solid rib is that the barrel the rib was installed on was a plain barrel. An original plain barrel WS1 skeet grade gun from Winchester is quite a rarity, but Winchester sold many non catalogued plain skeet bored and marked barrels to Simmons, either as assembled guns or barrels only. I don't think we know whether these barrels were made in the fifties for Simmons or whether they are old stock. If you ever disassemble your gun, you could look for the year of manufacture marking on the bottom of the barrel. This marking has nothing to do with the year of manufacture of the gun. The million seven serial number range is at the height of the popularity of Simmons marketed skeet guns. I sold a gun identical to yours to a long time shooting friend. It is also in the million seven range, has a Simmons rib and a Cutts installed on a plain WS1 barrel. Don't sell the collector value of your Simmons marketed gun short. With minty original 20 gauge vent rib Model 12s selling at close to $3000, these Simmons marketed guns are probably approaching $2000. That is at least twice the value of a converted field gun with replacement wood and retrofit Simmons rib. Your gun seems to have upgraded wood that could have been original equipment from Simmons. The gun I sold to my friend has painfully plain standard skeet grade wood. The hidden proof mark and the original WS1 plain barrel are the major clues to identifying your gun as a Simmons marketed gun.


Last edited by lowgun on Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:11 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8519
Location: Maryland
Back on page 1 of this thread, I answered Researcher's question about the active era of Simmons marketed guns. My Simmons catalog collection includes mention of Simmons marketed Model 12 and 42 with Simmons ribs from 1953 to 1961. There could be earlier or later mention, but that is the extent of my research. 1961 is probably about the latest because for Model 42s because that is about the end of Model 42 production. Simmons would have sold out of their Model 42 stock pretty fast after the factory quit making them. However, yes, however, I have dealer advertisements as late as 1966 promoting Simmons Model 12s and 42s. Front Royal Supply in Virginia was selling them real cheap. If I can find their price lists from that time, I will post the prices.


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:38 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:37 am
Posts: 526
Location: California
lowgun wrote:
Htdog, your gun is, as you suggest, a "Simmons marketed" gun.


Could this also be a gun that was sent back to Simmons at a later date for the addition of a Cutts and rib? I don't think that the jewelled follower would be a classic example of the Simmons marketed original Winchesters. It seems that it could be more of an Owner's request when sending a gun to Simmons. Again, with no factory records, no one will trully know.


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:14 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:51 pm
Posts: 58
Thank you lowgun and FNJ for the responses.

Its exciting to me that the gun could POSSIBLY be original.

Lowguns point about rarity of a plain barrel WS1 is interesting.
I wonder if a person could have called Simmons and requested a Cutts skeet gun, and added jeweling, then had the gun shipped directly to them?

The other thing that bothers me is the pad.

I could be wrong, but I dont think a pachmyer would be offered from Simmons?

I would NEVER sell the gun.
Its a joy to shoot, and I kinda like the Cutts. It patterns beautifully. The tube in the picture is a "spreader". I also have the longer "modified". Is there a "skeet" tube out there?

I am always looking for more of the tubes, but 20 gauge is difficult for me to find.

Gooser


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 pm
Posts: 3832
Location: The Republic of Texas
The "Spreader" IS the skeet tube.


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:14 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:51 pm
Posts: 58
OH JEEZE!!! :oops:

Thanks Cowboy!

Gooser


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:34 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Riverview, Michigan
I also have a 1931 ser no. 632542 winchester proof steel with a solid rib 30 inch full choke but ithink it has been reblued it looks great . I love to shoot and carry all of my model 12's these gun were made to be used not dust collectors !!


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 Post subject: Re: Simmons Marketed Winchester Model 12
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:50 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8519
Location: Maryland
fnj682, the chance of someone having a WS1 plain barrel gun in that serial number range is pretty remote. I have never had the opportunity to purchase a plain barrel WS1 20 gauge in fifty years of fooling with Model 12s. I have seen one in the hands of a major dealer, but some dealers sell a lot of Winchesters that didn't come from the factory in their present configurations. Simmons wasn't the only buyer of leftover Winchester barrels and parts when WRA quit making Model 12s and 42s. Many guns came out of Simmons with jeweled bolts and carriers, as well as with fake silver grip caps and glow worm sights. They were all commonly ordered extras on Simmons marketed guns.




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