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 Post subject: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:08 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:28 am
Posts: 393
One of my favorite subjects...I've read and reread the books by Madis, Riffle, and Stadt, and I still find it a little confusing. Madis would seem to be the most reliable and he does admit that every fact is not written in stone...that there were runovers, guns put together with left over parts for different reasons, etc, etc... I have a question...when a gun is described as having a "milled rib" I thought that referred to the fact that the barrel had posts that were milled as part of the barrel instead of being attached...I see guns described as having "round post milled ribs" I don't think that is correct?




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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Location: Maryland
You are correct. Most sellers have no idea what they are selling. A milled rib Model 12 is a milled rib Model 12, but the terminology is used a bit loosely.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:38 pm 
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To elaborate on lowgun's response, the "round post" rib was made by Simmons, not Winchester. You are also correct that the different rib styles used on Model 12's can get confusing.....EG


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm 
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Actually, it is generally thought by researchers that no Winchester factory Model 12 ribs were made or installed by Simmons.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:41 pm
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Location: Vancouver Island
In the 1950's Winchester's costs were losing pace with what they were ablle to sell their products for. Remington re-tooled from the M31 to the stamp, push and press 870 which sold for less than the M12. Winchester needed to cut it's manufacturing costs and the milled vented rib was a costly proceedure.

Winchester enjoyed a good relationship with Simmons and consulted them about using their patented vented rib. Winchester and Simmons worked out a deal where a few Simmon's employess would work at the Winchester factory instructing workers the proceedure of soldering the donut base round rib posts to the top of the barrel. When the work was done at the Winchester factory, these vented rib barrels are considered to be correct Winchester vented rib barrels and were proof stamped accordingly. But, when Simmons would take barrels, in the white, to their shop and install virtually the same rib; these were not considered to be Winchester factory correct barrels and I don't believe they were proof stamped. These were considered a Simmon's barrel and were stamped at the middle on the left side of the rib with Simmons, their address and patent.

Simmons continued to install their ribs on Model 12's for their customers, as an upgrade, and usually the entire gun was reblued with Simmon's high gloss bluing. These are nice guns, I have one myself, but they are sometimes over buffed and too shiney. I've seen some where the bluing has a wet look to it, similar to a high gloss clear coat on a car or truck.

Rod


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:53 am 
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Location: Maryland
And, as WRACO states, Simmons installed Model 12 ribbed guns were sold by Simmons, not Winchester. These ribs have Simmons markings. Factory original Model 12s with round post ribs were made by Winchester, not Simmons.


Last edited by lowgun on Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:46 am 
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There were also many ribs installed that were Simmons' design built by Win., and Simmons rib parts purchased by Winchester and installed at Win., and ribs installed by Win. and/or Simmons, left in the "white", and sent to the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:09 pm 
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Location: Maryland
Dolphin, I agree with you until the part where you imply that Model 12s were sent to Simmons for ribs and then sent back to Winchester to sell. That is true about Model 42s, but, as far as researchers know, it is not true about Model 12s.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:14 pm 
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Winchester sent some M-12s to Simmons to have ribs installed, Simmons returned them to Win. to be finished...at least thats what Stadt says in his book..."Winchester, Shotguns and Shotshells"...very interesting book....a little different look at M-12 than Madis and Riffle....WC


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:02 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:02 pm
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Location: Ct.
I believe that Stadt's book is one of the few that actually states that Winchester did produce M42s with Winchester vent ribs. Most books say they did not. I was glad to see this as I know for a fact that while many weren't done, they did indeed do some. Stadt's book is a very good book that alot of people don't seem to know about.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 46
Just to add th the issue, here's a note that I copied from Trapshooters.com some time age.

Paul Salchow, a Simmons employee wrote.
“After "Pops" Simmons died, and his son took over the company, all of the records were stored off site. When the Simmons family sold the company to Jerry's Sports, everything was shipped to their headquarters in PA. I do know that the Simmons pat. ribs were used for Winchester, Remington, and Mossburg factory production barrels. For Winchester, we did the M-42,12, 50 and 58(not many of these). Remington was more difficult with the work on the 28 gauge and 410 stuff for them. The ribs marked “Simmons Gun Specialty KCMO” were used also because of stock on hand. This also left us with some factory Winchester ribs that were never used and are still in crates. The rib department had the factory production "green tag” barrels. They were barrel only's. We installed the rib and blued the guns for all of our factory customers. The rib mixing and matching went on for several years but most were marked with the Simmons pat. This was a pretty wild time back then. There are about 3 gunsmiths left from that era, Malcom Rose, Kenny Bush, and John Tippen. Of the 3, John is the only one still working here. He would know more about this. This is what I have been told by the old guys. Again we do not have good information, just mostly shop notes and serial number records. Take it for what's it's worth to you. Just trying to help a bit. Look on the lower left side of the receiver for the engravers mark, that is a kind of standard place to hide one's initial.”


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:46 am 
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Dolphin717, please give us a page reference in Stadt where he mentions Simmons sending Model 12s with ribs back to Winchester for finishing, and/or marketing.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:39 am 
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Now I have never been wrong about anything in my life...LOL...just kidding, but the way I read it on the top of page 109...JMHO...Thanks, WC


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8519
Location: Maryland
Thanks for the reference. In reading Stadt's statements on page 109 of the latest version of this book, I don't see where he is too sure of his statements. I am still going with "Winchester sent Model 12s to Simmons for ribs, but Simmons sold them." Original appearing donut post and round post vent rib Model 12s with no Simmons markings and proof marks in the proper places are generally thought by collectors to have been made to completion in the Winchester factory. Model 42s with donut post ribs, no Simmons markings, proof marks in the right places, in the proper serial number range, are considered to have been made to completion in the Winchester factory. Model 42s with later ribs than the donut post, with no Simmons markings or with Simmons markings, and with proof marks in the proper places are thought to have had their ribs installed at Simmons and sent back to Winchester for marketing or marketed at Simmons. There are Simmons marketed guns with proper Winchester proof marks.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:27 pm
Posts: 15
I know of a gun shop in Idaho that can take about any model 42 and put on round post ribs or solid ribs that are just like factory original with the proof marks. And make the 42 any grade you want and a self described winchester know it all couldn't tell the differance and may have bought one. At a reasenable Price, you can have that gun you allways wanted without all this drama. And for this reason the spike in prices for the forty two will go back down becouse there is a alternative that is for sure and safe and they know all the things that people look for to see if it came from the winchester factory.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:38 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Texas, USA
2bit tommy wrote:
I know of a gun shop in Idaho that can take about any model 42 and put on round post ribs or solid ribs that are just like factory original with the proof marks.


Must have bought those original machines that Andy's had. I thought that only one of those still existed. Oh well I am not an expert on these ribs, but one thing I can say about Winchester is to never say never.

I have been told by people who should know about this. I did not try to capture all the details then. But it seemed like Simmons, or their people, did do some work for Winchester on this and that some of those are factory Winchester guns. Maybe - or not.

One interesting thing is that I have a couple of Simmons done guns that have probably generated more offers to buy them than my original factory Winchesters. One of them in particular is an early Nickel Steel M12 that was later redone by Simmons complete with a vent rib, beautiful wood with the later style grip and forearm , and all the trimmings. Man it handles. And has about an extra full choke barrel. On at least one occassion I SHOULD :) have sold it .


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8519
Location: Maryland
Tommy, I would be interested in one of the guns you describe. Can you help me out?


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:27 pm
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Helping out a person with 3378 posts who if they spent 5min. a post would have spent 281.5 hours trying to correct off handed remarks as a expert about winchester model 12's & 42's. Thats like spending 12 days straight day and night. The help you need is to get a life. And you are not right about them becouse the model 12 evolved over time with improvements you didn't seem to catch becouse you are probable not a shooter. So here is a history lesson on the skeet grade. 1934 skeet grade offerd. 1935 3" magnum offerd, will convert all 12 gages if wanted to 3" magnums, the begining of the long forcing cone. 1937 2pin vent rib offerd, all skeet grade guns offerd with solid or plain barrels. becouse plain barrels shoot higher than solid ribs do ,solid ribs shoot flatter. A 2pin vent rib lets the shooter sight under the bird and keep the bird in sight. So a shooter really doesnt need a rib. The old trap shooters didn't and they did just fine. 1938 lists the stock for a 12 gauge skeet grade as 14" with a Buttplate. later on flinching became a problem with 12 gauge shooters becouse of 300 round tournaments. so recall pads helped and they offerd hydro coil-stocks. Then people would choose a grade of model 12 and add or change things to ther hunting or shooting style. The point is the model 12 evolved. When winchester changed the chamber to 3" did they mark the barrels or reproof? I found some they didn't. I would think if you did shoot you proble flinch like heck becouse ther must be a lot of jerk in you. I hope this helps you out...


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:37 am 
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2bit tommy wrote:
Helping out a person with 3378 posts who if they spent 5min. a post would have spent 281.5 hours trying to correct off handed remarks as a expert about winchester model 12's & 42's. Thats like spending 12 days straight day and night. The help you need is to get a life. And you are not right about them becouse the model 12 evolved over time with improvements you didn't seem to catch becouse you are probable not a shooter. So here is a history lesson on the skeet grade. 1934 skeet grade offerd. 1935 3" magnum offerd, will convert all 12 gages if wanted to 3" magnums, the begining of the long forcing cone. 1937 2pin vent rib offerd, all skeet grade guns offerd with solid or plain barrels. becouse plain barrels shoot higher than solid ribs do ,solid ribs shoot flatter. A 2pin vent rib lets the shooter sight under the bird and keep the bird in sight. So a shooter really doesnt need a rib. The old trap shooters didn't and they did just fine. 1938 lists the stock for a 12 gauge skeet grade as 14" with a Buttplate. later on flinching became a problem with 12 gauge shooters becouse of 300 round tournaments. so recall pads helped and they offerd hydro coil-stocks. Then people would choose a grade of model 12 and add or change things to ther hunting or shooting style. The point is the model 12 evolved. When winchester changed the chamber to 3" did they mark the barrels or reproof? I found some they didn't. I would think if you did shoot you proble flinch like heck becouse ther must be a lot of jerk in you. I hope this helps you out...


Are you kin to Clovis Ledbetter?


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 Ribs?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:36 am 
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2bit tommy wrote:
I would think if you did shoot you proble flinch like heck becouse ther must be a lot of jerk in you. I hope this helps you out...


The jerk here appears to be you! :roll: Who the hell do you think you are?




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