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 Post subject: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:56 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:35 am
Posts: 29
Location: ILLINOIS
I LOOKED AT A WINCHESTER MODEL 12 TODAY . THERE IS ONE THING I DO NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS GUN . THE SERIAL NUMBERS ARE 4205807 AND BOTH NUMBERS MATCH. THE GUN LOOKS PERFECTLY NORMAL FOR THIS AGE . ALOT OF THE BLUING IS GONE, AND THE NUMBERS LOOK NORMAL. SINCE THEY ONLY MADE A LITTLE OVER 2 MILLION GUNS . HOW CAN THIS NUMBER BE RIGHT? I WOULD BUY THIS GUN EXCEPT FOR THE SERIAL NUMBER. DO YOU THINK THAT SOMEONE HAS BEEN DOING SOME STAMPING OF NUMBERS? THANK YOU




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 Post subject: re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:15 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:35 am
Posts: 174
Location: NW Lower Michigan
You could probably check out the serial # in the Blue Book of Gun Values. It'll also help you judge the condition and its value. Serial numbers don't always start with #1 & go up from there. I haven't looked in the Blue Book, but this serial number wouldn't necessarily mean that it was the 4,205,807th gun made. They may have started their serialization at 2,500,000, for example. The fact that the numbers match is a good start.


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 Post subject: re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:24 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 pm
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Location: The Republic of Texas
Is the barrel stamped "NICKEL STEEL"?


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 Post subject: Re: re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 pm
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Location: The Republic of Texas
16 Ga. wrote:
You could probably check out the serial # in the Blue Book of Gun Values. It'll also help you judge the condition and its value. Serial numbers don't always start with #1 & go up from there. I haven't looked in the Blue Book, but this serial number wouldn't necessarily mean that it was the 4,205,807th gun made. They may have started their serialization at 2,500,000, for example. The fact that the numbers match is a good start.


First, the Blue Book is worthless! :roll: AND you know little about Model 12s! They did start at #1!
If this is the stamped number then I suggest this number was a mistake.


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 Post subject: re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:55 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:35 am
Posts: 29
Location: ILLINOIS
THANKS FOR THE ANSWER OLE COWBOY. NO THE BARREL DOES NOT SAY NICKLE STEEL. THANK YOU


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 Post subject: re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:30 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:41 pm
Posts: 1124
Location: Vancouver Island
Have never heard of an American made Model 12 with a serial like that. The highest Model 12, excluding the Y Models, is 1,999,999; according to Dave Riffle. When the workers at New Haven would stamp two guns with same serial number, they would either send it back to metal finishing and buff off the serial number or they would stamp an x after the serial number.

I've never paid any attention to the off shore Model 12 reproductions; maybe it's one one of these with their own serial numbering. You might be wise to check this further if you're expecting to be buying a real Model 12 rather than get an off shore one hung on'ya. Unless you're okay with one of these. They're probably an alright gun for a shooter.
:)

:)


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 Post subject: Re: re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:02 am 
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 pm
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Location: The Republic of Texas
wraco wrote:
I've never paid any attention to the off shore Model 12 reproductions; maybe it's one one of these with their own serial numbering. You might be wise to check this further if you're expecting to be buying a real Model 12 rather than get an off shore one hung on'ya. Unless you're okay with one of these. They're probably an alright gun for a shooter.
:)

:)



The "off shore" Model 12s were all 20(Browning & Winchester) or 28(Browning only) gauge with vent ribs and would likely not have most of the finish worn off, and they have a combination of Letters and Numbers in their serial #.


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 Post subject: Re: re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:10 pm 
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Ole Cowboy wrote:
First, the Blue Book is worthless! :roll: AND you know little about Model 12s!


You're right - I don't know diddly about Model 12s - not really interested. I'd been thinking about SShooterZ's project to reorganize stickies for newbies in the reloading forum and had just answered another newby question & had newbies on the brain & responded to this in that context without paying attention to which forum it was in. :roll: I stand chastened and corrected, and am in awe.

Have to disagree about the Blue Book, though. I've found it helpful in ballparking prices on older doubles.


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 Post subject: re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:10 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:40 pm
Posts: 2345
Hello hamburger and everyone else: Well first off as Moderator, I'll remind everyone, the forum is a place to exchange information, what we've learned, from personal experiences, to what has been written and published, from original factory literature, to various authors.

Myself as Moderator I really have to try hard at times and choose my words carefully, as to not offend anyone!! We all have our own opinions as to "what's good information and what's bad information!! The point is if you feel someone has used a reference that's not as accurrate as it could be, please feel free to post a better reference. People are only trying to help the original poster out!!

Now hamburger this question has come up before! What I can tell you is serial numbers for the US made Md 12s started with #1 in 1912 and ended in the 2,026,500 range in 1985 with the last special run of "Y" Md 12s known as the Jaquae order to USRA.

Now sometimes a " 1 " can look like an L especially on the one million guns that started with " 1 ". While I haven't seen every Md 12 ever made, none to my knoledge ever started with a 4 except those in the 400,000 S/N range which would have been 1925-1927 manufacturing years, and the barrel should be stamped NICKEL STEEL or STAINLESS STEEL.

Since numbers can be polished off, especially on receiver extentions, a little harder on receivers, and reapplied. you may have seen a 4,000,000 S/N but it didn't come from the factory!!

BTW the Blue Book isn't totally useless, because I wouldn't sell a pre-64 Winchester shotgun for less than what the Blue Book said it was worth! LOL

For serial number info: I use Dave Riffles book for the Md 1912/12, Ned Scwhings books for the Md 21 and 42. for the others I use Maddis' 2nd edition!!!! His first edition has too many problems, from typos to inaccurate info. If you have a Winchester shotgun, other than a Md 21 or 1897 below S/N 380,000 we have to use Maddis' numbers until something more accurate is published. since the Md 21 and 1897 below 380,000 are the only pre-64 shotguns to letter from the Cody Firearms Museim.
Regards to all

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:01 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:49 am
Posts: 1
I have the same situation: no serial number.

Is it normal?
How can i identify manufacturing year?

Click for image #1

Click for picture #2

Click for Image #3

click for image #4

Click for image #5

click for image with most info
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image


Last edited by Curly N on Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Unable to edit posting to get images to work. Edited to make several images clickable


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 Post subject: Re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:41 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8519
Location: Maryland
Sure enough, no serial numbers in your photographs. Try taking some photographs of a part of the gun that has serial numbers stamped on it, like the bottom of the gun where the barrel and the receiver go together.


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 Post subject: Re: MODEL 12 SERIAL NUMBERS
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:13 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:35 am
Posts: 60
KvaK,

Took a few visits before I noticed the differently formatted photos at the bottom of your post. Yup, no serial number. Perhaps it was removed to hide some nefarious deed...

As for dating the gun, the best you can do is ballpark by the evidence you do have. The forearm appears to be the 14 groove second style. I think that would make it at least 65 years old. Also, the barrel stamping changed from time to time so your stamp should give you a range.

Dave mentioned Riffle as a resource for model 12's or perhaps a more knowledgeable forum member might chime in and identify the range of dates your gun was manufactured.

Renttis




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