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 Post subject: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:57 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:23 pm
Posts: 24
Pictures added 11/1...more in last post

I have a pre-WWII Winchester Model 12 Skeet in 16 GA with a 26" Solid ribbed barrel. The Gun is absolutely stunning and dare I say is at least 99% conservatively. This shotgun could pass for new if I had the matching box in similar condition. It does not look like it was even cycled much as there is no wear on the slide let alone the rest of the metal. It has a checkered forearm and pistol grip and a black pistol grip cap and plastic butt plate along with a white bead. From my research, the serial 69x,xxx (which matches the barrel) indicated a 1936 date of manufacture.

I was hoping someone could give me an idea of a value being that the 2007 blue book I often use, indicates no more information than "16ga is rare and will command a premium".

I have spent a few hours trying to find at least a pre-war mdl 12 16ga skeet and the only one I saw was sold in 2010 for an undisclosed price and had a red rubber pad and was about 85-90% condition at best.

Considering the lack of published sales of the gun and given the stellar condition, even $3500 seems rather lite, and I doubt I would part with it for that amount.

I understand something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay, but I also understand basic economics. If I could see one example of something in the same ballpark, I would simply assume a 20% decrease in asking price would yield a sale, but there is nothing (to my knowledge) on the internet to compare.

Any gurus here that can help me out?




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Last edited by CottonTail89 on Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:17 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 11426
Location: Kansas
Guns like yours have been “manufactured” by unscrupulous shops to appear to be a like new “real deals” because of their rarity, desirability, and collectibility. Their work is so good that only experts cans make a determination on originality. I’m not saying that’s what you have, but often it is the case. If yours is in fact an original pre-war gun in like new condition, then my guess would be $4500 to $6000, but that’s just a guess. The actual market values is what someone is willing to pay being absolutely convinced of it’s originality.

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"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:28 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 4983
Location: WA/AK
Rare is a way overstatement! The 16-gauge Model 12 Skeet Gun was a regular catalog symbol (G1281S) item from the introduction of the Model 12 Skeet Gun in the 1934 Winchester Catalog --

Image

through the February 2, 1950 Winchester Catalog.

Image

And, Winchester still had some to move when they introduced the Model 12 Super Grade Field Gun in 1955 --

Image

Similarly there are a lot of 16-gauge Winchester Model 21 Skeet Guns out there.

Likewise the Remington Model 31 and Sportsman Skeet Guns were offered in 16-gauge.

Also, 16-gauge skeet loads were offed for many years.

Image

While they may not be as common as other gauges they are far from rare.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:39 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1531
Location: Maine
What chokestamp? WS-2s are much less common, bring more.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:43 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:23 pm
Posts: 24
Where would I find this choke stamp?


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:42 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1531
Location: Maine
Left side (side opposite ejection port) of barrel just ahead of the barrel extension.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:28 pm 
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Location: Kansas
You didn’t say if was stamped “Skeet” above the serial number. Pre War guns that I’ve seen were so stamped. Look at the stamping. If it’s lightly stamped “Skeet” then that is characteristic of pre war production. If the stamping is heavy and deep, then that is a characteristic of a fake. Solid rib 16 ga Skeet guns are far less plentiful than 12s and 20s and even 28s because the 16 is not a Skeet bore size even though Skeet was a “grade” of the model 12, and not necessarily a competition gun. I have only seen a hand full of them in 50 years of gun trading and only one Pigeon Grade. So few out there it would be hard to establish a market value

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"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:10 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:23 pm
Posts: 24
It is stamped ws-1 and the skeet is definitely not as deep as the serial number


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:14 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:23 pm
Posts: 24
But yes, it is stamped "skeet" above the serial number. By your information I would say it's not a fake. Pictures are taken but will have to resize the images tomorrow as I am off to my cabin to get out with the bow.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:30 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
Posts: 944
While a 16 gauge Model 12 Skeet gun was catalogued for quite a few years, they are mighty thin on the ground in Gun Shows that I frequent.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:56 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:23 pm
Posts: 24
Pictures added to top and these next posts


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:59 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:23 pm
Posts: 24
More Pics


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:30 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:23 am
Posts: 396
If you know how , take the gun down and take clear pictures of inside the receiver where the barrel was installed, if the two rings inside the receiver are not blued, chances are good that the gun has the original bluing if those two rings inside the receiver are blued, then you have a reblued unoriginal gun. Also send a picture of the underside of the triggerguard and safety with the safety off. On a gun in that condition the safety should show a new red finish. On most guns that have been refinished to look like new they neglect to touch up the red on the safe. These are a couple of things to look for but do not necessarily prove the un is origina. Skeets usually have a middle bead on the rib also.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:12 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:23 pm
Posts: 24
Thank you for the information. I am excited to take it down, but assuming it is no different than a standard mdl 12, I will brush up on how to take it down on a beat up one in the back of the safe. One of my pictures shows both front and rear bead.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:29 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1975
Location: Augusta, GA
saskbooknut wrote:
While a 16 gauge Model 12 Skeet gun was catalogued for quite a few years, they are mighty thin on the ground in Gun Shows that I frequent.


Most gun shows around the country have very few, if any Graded Model 12s or 42s. Most shows rarely even have well used Standard Field Grade 12s and 42s. The internet took care of that. Most mom and pop gun shops, those that remain, dont even have any.

The big gun auctions and internet auctions are really the only place to find anything decent anymore, unless you have connections.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:35 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1975
Location: Augusta, GA
The receiver finish on this gun appears almost new. We'd need to see clear close up photos of both sides of the receiver. Top edges of receiver appear rounded, which is a tell tale sign of a reblue and an over zealous gunsmith with a buffer. Condition is much too nice for age of gun, especially the wood. My opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:08 am 
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Location: Kansas
Yeah, the finish on the wood doesn’t look right. It’s too perfect and contemporary

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"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:10 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1531
Location: Maine
M12Gunboy wrote:
The receiver finish on this gun appears almost new. We'd need to see clear close up photos of both sides of the receiver. Top edges of receiver appear rounded, which is a tell tale sign of a reblue and an over zealous gunsmith with a buffer. Condition is much too nice for age of gun, especially the wood. My opinion.


Had a similar thought, also as per Casonet. That said, am no longer willing to judge pics taken with interior lighting. It can create an impression a buffing wheel was used.

Outdoor lighting is so much better. Suggest CT89 take a larger number of pics, closer, multiple angles, with outdoor lighting. Idea is to nix all reflection as best as possible. We need to assess edges and corners. The real story is told by metal prep, less often by finish.

Outdoor closeups for the wood, too. Emphasis on wood/metal/rubber transitions. Also checkering.

Too many folks understand the safety and chamber ring pearls for those to be reliable of themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:19 pm 
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Also the blueing is something to look at closely. There was a conversion from charcoal and bone blueing to Dulux shortly before WW II. The charcoal blueing doesn’t remotely look like anything used today and Dulux isn’t far behind.

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"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 12 Skeet 16 GA Rarity?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:53 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:23 pm
Posts: 24
Attached are the pictures of the mating surfaces of the barrel and receiver as well as the tang screw by the trigger guard. Safety is red as well. I will have to try and get some outdoor pictures. I did find a little frosting on the bottom of the trigger guard and it looks like the previous owner electro-penciled his initials on the slide bar and inside of the chamber. I think I will have to give Cody a call and see if their letters say who the gun was shipped to/for




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