ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:55 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDATE!!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:32 pm 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:50 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Looking at my recently acquired 1950 production Model 12 in 28 GA and want to verify that all the parts that should be marked with the numbers "28" are correctly marked.

Would appreciate a list of parts that I should be looking at??

I see it on the tang under the butt stock, and it's obviously on the barrel.

Where else??

Thank you in advance,

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image




Last edited by THREEDFLYER on Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked??
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:37 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1531
Location: Maine
PM sent


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked??
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:36 pm 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:50 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Thanks for the info you send, I really appreciate it!
I added a bunch of photos to show the markings that I have located.....my guess is that this one was sent out to have the rib installed.....maybe by SIMMONS???
I wonder if they kept records of their work that far back?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked??
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:40 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1531
Location: Maine
Have corresponded with Threedflyer via email. Summarizing, think we're looking at a relatively early aftermarket donut post VR installation (SN dates to around 1950) by Simmons.

Grooves on the barrel consistent with removal of the solid rib (hence offset proof).

No pics of the raceway yet, but suspect this is an original 28 ga gun, but in non-original condition.

Hope another regular will help with valuation estimate.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked??
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:42 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 11426
Location: Kansas
Will you please explain exactly what you are referring to when you talk about “grooves on the barrel”? I also have a 28 of about the same vintage with an after market Simmons rib, except mine is a Pigeon grade.

_________________
"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked??
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:58 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1531
Location: Maine
Casonet, Look again at pics #5-7. Best seen on pic 7. Running parallel to the barrel, just outside the donuts, you'll see them. Only Winchesters told us solid rib barrels had longitudinal grooves (2) cut muzzle to threads, to which the 5/16" rib stock having corresponding radiuses underneath would mate.

I asked Threedflyer to confirm what I was seeing, and he did so.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked??
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:05 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 11426
Location: Kansas
OK, got it. Was the purpose for alignment prior to soldering?

_________________
"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:19 pm 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:50 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Hello all, I called the Simmons company today to ask if they kept records of guns worked on by serial number and they do not. They told me to look closely at the left side of the rib near the breech and see if I could see a roll stamped "Simmons Gun Specialties" there and behold there it was!

I tried to take a photo so you folks could see.....so now we know it's one of Simmons rib conversions.

Now I need to determine a fair retail value of this one......

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:28 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 11426
Location: Kansas
The early ribs were not stamped. All ribs were not blued either. I have four with the ribs in the “white”

_________________
"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:34 pm 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:50 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
With this being a 1950 production Winchester it's anyone's guess when it was sent to Simmons for the work to be done.

Regardless, it's a pretty clean piece and the work seems to have been well done.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:37 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 11426
Location: Kansas
Simmons ribs were very popular in the 1950s as were Cutts compensators. I consider them correct for the period. In those days the plain barrel guns were the odd balls

_________________
"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:01 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 11:01 am
Posts: 152
Is it an optical illusion or does the end of the muzzle look like the barrel has been sleeved to 28 gauge? It visually looks like a 20 gauge barrel has been sleeved to 28 gauge?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:12 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 11426
Location: Kansas
Wow. I totally missed that

_________________
"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:25 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 11426
Location: Kansas
I just measured my 28 and 20 barrels O.D. Both are at 0.698”. Seems that I recall that they used 20 ga barrels to make the 28 ga by simply under boring them

_________________
"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked??
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:44 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1531
Location: Maine
casonet wrote:
OK, got it. Was the purpose for alignment prior to soldering?


Alignment and purchase.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:47 pm 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:50 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
375shooter wrote:
Is it an optical illusion or does the end of the muzzle look like the barrel has been sleeved to 28 gauge? It visually looks like a 20 gauge barrel has been sleeved to 28 gauge?


It is NOT a sleeved barrel.......


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:52 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1531
Location: Maine
375shooter wrote:
Is it an optical illusion or does the end of the muzzle look like the barrel has been sleeved to 28 gauge? It visually looks like a 20 gauge barrel has been sleeved to 28 gauge?


I think that's a bevel, not a sleeve joint. Though refinished (probably by Simmons) barrel looks to have 28 and 2 7/8 stampings in same font/depth as the rest of the address. Still want to know if the magazine button is stamped 28.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:21 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 11:01 am
Posts: 152
THREEDFLYER wrote:
375shooter wrote:
Is it an optical illusion or does the end of the muzzle look like the barrel has been sleeved to 28 gauge? It visually looks like a 20 gauge barrel has been sleeved to 28 gauge?


It is NOT a sleeved barrel.......


I only mentioned the possibility because in that particular picture of the muzzle it looks like a sleeved barrel that was reblued and the two dissimilar metals didn't blue the same color. If you have more pictures of the muzzle i would love to see them. Have you determined that the cutoff channel is angled in the receiver?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:18 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 1531
Location: Maine
375shooter wrote:
Have you determined that the cutoff channel is angled in the receiver?


Thanks. Sent description and pics to Threedflyer, but a pic would be nice. I don't think it's sleeved, but if we really needed to see best view is from the chamber.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 12 - What parts should be marked?? UPDA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:15 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 11426
Location: Kansas
Saw this one this week. Looks to be similar. It’s still for sale.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/929491136/W ... T-1953.htm



_________________
"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: BerettaEd, Bing [Bot], dickgtax, drf001, EricB, goldwingmike, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, jandat, MPottsman21, rabbitwhacker, shacked, streamrocks, strut64, Whipped500, Ziptar


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice