ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:24 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:30 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 10:03 am
Posts: 15
Greetings to the Board,

I just took delivery of a Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun that I ordered from a reputable online seller (blame it on Covid boredom).

I bought this gun as a shooter and it's in beautiful condition, but has one serious issue, one "medium" issue, and maybe a third. The serial number on the barrel (411xx) doesn't match the receiver (613xx). Otherwise the gun looks fine to me - the whole thing is an impressive 98% and there is nothing in the finish that would make you think the barrel was a replacement or mismatched. The 3-pin ventilated rib (rectangular posts) looks correct to me, too - although I'm not an expert and don't really know what to look for. There are no markings (Simmons or otherwise) on the rib.

Secondly, the buttplate is a Pachmayr Old English replacement. The pull dimension is 14-1/4", so I don't think the stock has been cut (hope not, anyway). The buttstock is a little wobbly (not tight up against the receiver), but I've seen step-by-step instructions here for correcting that.

And finally, I have read that these Model 50 Trap Guns had a modification that deflected empties right at the feet of the shooter - so as not to cause any issues with nearby trap shooters. I don't think this gun has that feature, but I don't have a good picture of one to compare. If one of you has (or can take, or point me to) a close-up photo of the deflector, please post it so that I can compare with what I have.

TIA,

Disappointed Tom




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:24 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:04 pm
Posts: 551
Welcome to the club, Tom. Bobski is the real expert, but I'll take a crack at a couple items.

I can't really speak to the SN issue, but I just looked and none of my barrels have serial numbers. Certainly it's not uncommon on a 50 or 60 yr old gun to find the barrel has been swapped.

As you note, the loose stock is easily fixed, but is important. If there's too much play it puts stress on the recoil tube in the stock and can actually break it.

The trap modification you speak of was, I believe, a slight change in the shape of the chamber insert. The surest way to know if you have one would be to shoot a couple shells after you get everything squared away. A normal 50 will throw hulls briskly (and one with the timing out might throw them 20+ft). I've also seen reference to another sort of deflector that looks a bit like a feeler gage that slides between the receiver and the chamber insert.

Number one thing sorting a newly acquired 50 is to get a fresh recoil spring. A worn or badly set recoil spring will allow the bolt to slam back in the receiver, eventually causing a crack at the rear of the charging handle cutout. Although it might be tempting, it would be better not to fire the gun until you confirm the status of the recoil spring and the get the stock snugged up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:48 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 10:03 am
Posts: 15
Thanks & much appreciated.

Quick note for now. The barrel serial number is stamped into the base of the ring, halfway up the barrel (that fits over the magazine tube).

I would also be interested to learn when Winchester came up with that deflector arrangement (was it from the beginning of Model 50 manufacture, or did it come along later?), and what name - if any - Winchester gave to the modified component in order to distinguish it from one without the deflector feature.

And I will certainly not rush to fire this gun (if I decide to keep it) before all is right and the spring is checked out & replaced if needed.

This gun actually looks new! A safe queen, I'm guessing...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:48 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:42 pm
Posts: 148
Pull the bolt back until it locks open. From that condition pull back on the charging handle. It should move further back a small amount more..maybe 1/16 to 1/8 in without the charging handle hitting the end of the slot. If it hits thle end of slot then the spring needs to be either adjusted or replaced.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:32 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4522
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
tom, the guys did a good job answering. i'll just add that its easier to believe an early gun with a newer bbl, than it is to have a new gun with an older bbl. you have a later model bbl. a 61xxx should have a round post rib from the factory.
welcome to the endless search for a trap chamber.
ive been looking for decades.
the trap gun was sold with a unique chamber. but, over time... most got changed out as they wore were and given standard chambers. trap chambers extend out into the eject port an extra 1/2" or so. I got pics of one posted here somewhere in the forum.
trap guns were sold with red pads. take it off and see if it only has 1 set of drilled holes. if so, you got a keeper. hopefully the aftermarket pad used the old holes. btw...replacement pads are available. and they are real ones, not the orange crap csm sells.
#1 priority....tighten up that stock and check it for the factory washer recall. a 61xxx should have been modified at the factory. but ya never know what owners did with these old guns.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:00 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4522
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
here ya go........


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:01 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 10:03 am
Posts: 15
Thanks for the input & information. Just out of curiosity, what kind of VR posts would have been correct for my 411XX barrel?

I took the recoil pad off and there is just one set of holes in the buttstock :)

Will finish disassembling the gun and will check for the washer recall fix. And thanks for the images, too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:56 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 10:03 am
Posts: 15
bobski - is there an easy way for me to determine whether or not my buttstock has the washer modification? I see that Numrich sells something called a "Takedown Screw Bushing," wondering if I need one? The buttstock on my gun was loose when it arrived from the seller.

Also, any thoughts one way or the other about the Wolff replacement spring?

Thanks for your help!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:06 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:42 pm
Posts: 148
The Wolff springs are great and about the only way of getting a known new spring of the proper length.

As far as the loose stocks go, Ive made the mods to a couple of my guns, per the Winchester service info. I had a tool made to do the spring adjustment. Not wanting to overtighten the stock. I've had the stocks still get loose. In my opinion for the mod, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Now if a stock starts to loosen, I just use the tool to snug it up again and recheck the bolt for proper adjustment. I've got 5 Model 50's and the barrels have been switched on 3 of them as I "have to have" vent ribs on my guns.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:18 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4522
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
no fast way to check it. theres two ways the washer mod recall was done. it was sent back to the factory or a repair shop and it was done right, or it was done by the owners only doing 1/2 the job.
the mod calls for wood to be relieved for the thickness of the washers. it means, you must ream the wood cavity to allow for the washers space. then they are installed.
but most just dropped the washers in and thought its done. problem is by putting just the washers in, you move the tube farther from the receiver, which means, when you time your spring the alloy nut will be deeper in the tube, far from the pin holes for the stay pin to engage in the nut slot. issue is, that space will allow the nut to back out causing the spring and action bar to travel too far back, causing the bolt to strike the receiver, cracking it. a quick fix for guns lacking wood thats relieved is to install a penny on top of the nut, then install the pin(clip). the penny is the same thickness as the 2 washers. as the nut tries to back out as you use the gun, it'll hit the penny, and the penny will hit the pin, and stop. rinky dink, yes. but it saves the gun.
if you dont have one yet, get the blue win model 50 factory booklet. it has all the blueprints and specs of all the recalls. ebay is full of them. hope this helps.
and...if you find more than 1 trap chamber, give me dibbs!


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Last edited by bobski on Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:25 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4522
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
keep in mind, the bbl number isn't nessesarily the receiver number it went on. many bbls were numbered as inventory numbers. there may have been 200,000 guns made, but 600,000 bbls. follow me?
donut posts were first 2 years production. 56 was the round post era (#60,000) pretty much the same as the model 12 ribs.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:28 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4522
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
btw...takedown screw bushing isn't the part. I believe its called stock washer set. I got few sets at home. be glad to sell ya a set.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Last edited by bobski on Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:14 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:21 pm
Posts: 228
Location: NJ
Is there a picture anyplace of the order of the 2 washers, waved,flat?

_________________
Browning 725 HR Adjustable 32"12ga
Benelli S Sport 32"12ga
Remington 1187SP 32"12ga
Caesar Guerini Summit Trap Combo 32/34"
Winchester Model 59 Winlite 30"full 12ga
Ithaca Gun 36"12g
Pride of Spain10g
NRA LifeMember since2000


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:25 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4522
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
yes.
fyi, the recall came out in late 1955, so odds are, all guns leaving the factory after that were modified. so this washer upgrade is for wood on guns in the first 2 years of production.
but you cant go by that though....because so many owners have changed wood out or ordered new wood from Winchester shelves over the life of these guns, that many may not have been modified. its best to check all guns coming into your possession.

as these guns age out, many guns get swapped out parts to keep them going. one look at ebay will prove that. gun dealers strip guns to sell the parts, which is more lucrative than selling the whole gun.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Last edited by bobski on Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:31 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4522
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
and whatever you do, don't think locktighting the tube will help. it will be a disaster. when you go to take out the tube for a stock change or whatever, it can twist the stock bolt out of the back of the receiver. problem is, nothing will be able to slide off the tubes. the stock bolt will secure the stock on one end, and the tube will secure it at the back. grid lock. epic fail.
as mentioned, this washer mod doesn't always succeed in fixing the issue. I found roughing the washers a little, gives it something to bite into.
so, looking at the pic....

never locktight a to b. itll cause c to back out.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:10 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:57 am
Posts: 50
Could we make this a sticky please?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:46 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 10:03 am
Posts: 15
Thanks, bobski - all great info. You saved me from myself - I was already picturing Loctite between the closing spring tube and the receiver extension. Will now abort that idea {hs#

Secondly, I do see that Numrich sells the two washers - one "straight" and one "curved" - just not sure if I need them yet.

In the Winchester document you posted with instructions for the washer "fix," where it talks about the necessary counterboring, it references "Section 7A - Notes on Servicing Model 50." Do you have that, too?

And my final (for now) question: after the factory began to implement the washer "fix," did they install washers at the factory? If so, then I should be able to tell if my gun has been altered by looking if I can see a washer down there, or maybe by lowering a small magnet & see if it sticks. Correct?

Thanks for all of your continuing help. I'm 73 and have all manner of trap guns, all the way back to a c. 1902 Model 97, a Remington Model 1894 FE Grade double, a couple of Remington "Pre-Model 11" Trap Grade Auto-Loaders (among others). But this is my first (probably not last) Model 50 - and I can use all the help I can get :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:45 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4522
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
the sticky for m50's is already at top. sadly, no one uses it though.
7a is in va and im in conn now. cant post it. sorry.
glad I could help.
one of these days i'll have a 7e or a parker sbt. then again, wife says my gun buying days are over. lol.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:51 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4522
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
when you take off the stock, the 2 washers should fall out with it.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Winchester Model 50 Trap Gun - Need Some Help, Please
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:11 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:42 pm
Posts: 148
I've got my original Model 50 that I got new from my parent's hardware store. It was built in the later half of 1958. When I finally removed the stock just a few years ago, it did NOT have the washer fix. Just FYI.




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 5 Stand Dan, AJ-M12, albanygun, amboy49, avogunner, barrelsquared, bbludau34, bfre49849, bigrobbierob, Bing [Bot], Bladeswitcher, buckshot45, Byron Whitlock, casonet, castnblast2, CCskeetr, Cfelix10, chaininsomniac, chairman, chemclay, clayflingythingy, Curly N, cyclonevmc, D McMillen, DavidRamey, dogchaser37, drawdc, FlyChamps, goodemachine, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, HenryPeter, Jim H, jmp300wsm, John H, jusanothajoe, Kentuckycook, Kimokk, Mark Pfeifer, markone, md2020, Minoan, Misery556, moorewhiskey, Myboytroy, noweil, Olderguy, oneounceload, painter*, Patently Obvious, pjmx, Pmollo, QuietZac, redbone99, Researcher01, Riflemeister, Robert405, shacked, Shooting Dave, Shotguncockersp, Skeet_Man, snooky, Spizzer, StevenZ, Stk218, sv10001975, thor_sen, Tonybart55, tracker 6, treeduck71, tschlemm, Tvbh40a, twin rivers, Twodog, uncle-buck, winmod21, Winston Wolf


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice