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 Post subject: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:37 pm 
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I have a Model 12 28 gauge Serial number 1351806 (1953) that has characteristics of a factory built 28 gauge (slanted follower and stamped "28" on back or receiver,) but the gun had a Simmons rib added at some point and the magazine band has a "20" stamped on it. Is the fact that a "20" is stamped on the magazine band, in and of itself, enough to establish this gun as likely a Simmons Conversion from a 20 gauge. Gun remains in fantastic condition. We are planning on selling this and a few others out of a small herd that the family has accumlated over the years and I want to be sure that I represent the gun correctly. I have read thread after thread on this but wanted to get the opinions of a few on here. Thanks




Last edited by Alleycat on Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:18 pm 
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Simmons would buy guns from Winchester and add the rib and sell them. For a time they also ribbed guns for Winchester, but those will not bear the Simmons name on the rib. Can’t explain the barrel band. Are the proof marks visible on the receiver and barrel?

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:29 pm 
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Proof mark is visible next on barrel next to base of rib where it meets receiver but no proof mark on exterior of receiver. Just out of curiosity what's the relevence of proof marks to establishing whether this is a conversion? I've seen a couple other references to that point but I'm not sure why. I have model 42's and other M12's with Simmons ribs and no proof marks on barrel or receiver.


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 Post subject: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:56 pm 
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I have a Simmons conversion much like yours. Mine has an offset proof mark on the barrel meaning to me it came with a solid rib that was replaced with a Simmons vent but no rib extension on the receiver thus both proof marks are visible. If the Simmons rib extension covers the proof mark on the top of the receiver, then the work is not factory, but done by Simmons.

Simmons would buy new unribbed guns and install a rib and extension that would cover both proof marks. I have one of those too. Remove the rib extension and you will find the proof mark underneath

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:09 pm 
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OK I understand. The lines showing the location of the old solid rib are evident running along top of barrel. I know that this is topic is a bit of a rabbit hole but I'm curious about the timing. This gun was mfg in 1953 but I was under the impression that Winchester stopped intstalling factory solid ribs abound 1948. If that's the case how would this gun have had a solid rib. I'm not suggesting it didn't but I'm confused about the timing. Or was it that Simmons purchased solid rib barrels from Winchester, removed the ribs and installed their own? Frankly I love the weight of th solid rib barrels on the lighter guns like the 42 and M12-28 but I guess the vent rib was the latest fashion.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:25 pm 
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A lot of those questions I can’t answer. The date of the receiver and the barrel are most likely different although they have the same serial number. Using a flashlight look on the underside of the barrel near the receiver and there will be two numbers indicating the year the barrel was made. You may need to clean with a qtip or pipe cleaner first to remove dust and grime so it’s is visible

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:18 pm 
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Well that settles it. Barrel is 1948 so it is a conversion but nonetheless a really neat gun. We have a pair of these and I'm sure that upon closer inspection, the other one will likely be the same. I really appreciate your help.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:35 pm 
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I’m no expert, but I’ve been through it too. I have a bonafied pigeon 12/28 that someone decided to improve with a Cutts and then had it engraved scrimshaw style. Nice shooter but no value to a collector

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:43 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
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Winchester did not observe FIFO except, probably, for military contracts. So barrels might have date codes reflecting earlier production than receivers. SNs correlate better with manufacture/assembly. This is not a M-12 specific thing. It's true with many models including M-70s. One of my transition 42s has a prewar barrel and finish.

Rib is not original, probably was a solid rib. First, Simmons-marketed guns have been discussed here. Second, around '63 they bought SR barrels from WW which they used to build conversion guns. Finally, they would also install their VRs on customer SR barrels.

The receiver sounds like a 28 ga receiver. The stamp tells me something, but the angled cutoff raceway and large shell stop are even more solid indications. Pics are somewhere on the site, but if you PM I can send some to an email address.

"20" on a barrel band does not necessarily mean the receiver was originally a 20 or 16.

Sounds like a nice gun.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:35 am
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Sorry Cas but I gotta ask what would a model 12 pigeon in 28 ga be worth now if it didn't have the cutts and after market engraving. If it's too depressing , just tell me the number of figures.

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Bobcat


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:56 pm 
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Don’t know, but a lot!

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 Post subject: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:17 pm
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I can’t speak to the authenticity of this one. Maybe some of the experts here can help out(Pauline?).
But here is one on guns international listed for $15,000.00.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns- ... =101531268

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:23 pm 
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Lack of details in the pictures is indicative if something being hidden. Highly likely a fake. BUYER BEWARE!!

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:54 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:22 am
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I wish that Simmons, Herters and the rest of the folks that converted these guns had stamped them somewhere to indicate conversion. It's really a shame that the waters have become so muddied on the M12 28's because of this. I went ahead and put this gun for sale on gunbroker suggesting in the listing that this was possibly a Simmons Conversion but Hell who knows! I wanted to get listing up and gun sold before GB started charging all buyers state sales tax January 1. I much prefer to sell on Guns International but in a case where I can't really determine the value of something like this 28, GB seems to be the way to go and let the beauty and value be determined by the buyer.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:13 am 
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Basically Simmons did with their name on the rib. How more obvious could it be? Ernie Simmons would do anything that the customer desired and he wasn’t bashful about putting his name on it. By the way he died practically broke.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:55 pm 
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I realize that Simmons put the name on the rib but I also own Model 42 and Model 12's in 12, 16 and 20 that also have Simmons labeled vent ribs on them but the guns were not converted to another gauge. I had always assumed that Simmons vent ribs were simply aftermarket vent ribs and only that. We, being (myself, father and brother - all shooters) always assumed that this gun was simply a Model 12 28 gauge that was built as such by Winchester. I never, before three days ago, even remotely suspected that any Model 12 had ever been converted from one gauge to another. I guess this must have been common knowlege back in the day when this was being done.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:28 pm 
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A long and interesting relationship existed between WW and Simmons.

Simmons added ribs (aftermarket) to customer guns both pre and post-64, as you assumed.

Less generally understood, Simmons also marketed new mfg guns (sold pre-64) using in white parts obtained from Winchester. Many of these had Simmons ribs.

The M-42/Simmons connection is even more unusual. Winchester had Simmons workers install ribs on 42s both at the WW factory (early) and at Simmons (later). So some factory original Winchester M-42s have ribs marked Simmons.

As said, in '63 Simmons bought from WW the remaining 28 ga parts inventory and did 28 ga conversions to customer supplied guns. FWIW, Simmons conversion M-12s tend to cycle better than originals.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 28 Gauge - Simmons Conversion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:39 pm 
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With Simmons, anything is possible. Anything!



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