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 Post subject: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:09 am 
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Location: Missouri
Anyone else experienced choke tubes shooting loose on the Ultra Lite.

I tighten the choke like I always tighten my chokes on my O/U and then after a few stations on the Skeet range I notice that it can be turned by my finger!

What am I doing wrong? I'm using a lubricant - don't know what brand but it's the one I've used for years.

Thanks for any insight in to this worrisome problem.



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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:24 am 
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Just in case you haven't noticed my posts before, I try to educate shooters about the mass-production problems with chokes, choke holes, and how they work together (or not).

I have seen factory chokes shoot off as much as a foot at 60 feet, and had shooters tell me of even worse errors.

The factories are going to run a tool as fast as they can, and until it is as dull as they can stand, and exactly where your barrel and tube happened to be in that line, well, that's why you can get weird combinations. Add in the wear in the machine, a random chip that gets between the material and collet for a finish cut, falling into a bin full of other parts (ding!), and there you are.

I have to rework barrels to make them less likely to have conditions such as yours when the shooter doesn't want to necessarily have a new precision hole, but wants the original machined parts dressed more accurately.
If that is still not satisfactory, or if the shooter wants something better than the typical sloppy factory fit, then I can always make a precision choke hole and matching tubes.

The flatness of the tube seat in the barrel may very likely be marred by burr edges (remember those dulling tools), and the threads may actually be cut on a different alignment than the HOLE for the tube. What do you think should be the result of having a rough seat, a hole with threads that are canted vs. the cylindrical part of the hole, and a tube being distorted by tightening into a distorted shape?

Now shoot a shell through the barrel with the high pressure, impact against the choke, and a vibration like a whipping fishing pole tip.

Your choke is loose because these conditions prevent anything from acting in the expected manner, since the expected fit and meshing is absent.

Does that answer your questions enough to understand why I do what I do?
I understand the situation, and try to make others understand, also.

I am a specialty shotgun gunsmith.

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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:38 pm
Posts: 367
Location: Western Oregon
My chokes in the BUL will work loose if I do not use the tool from Benelli to tighten them. Of all the faults with choke tubes, it is that they have to be seated very firmly with a wrench, or the majority will work loose. I have given up hoping they will stay tight on any of the choke tubed guns. Just check them regularly.

I have heard of some shootes using the Teflon tape on the threads, but have never tried it myself. Others experiences may be different.


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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:07 am 
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When threads are cut, in the normal course of things, there is about as much, (or even more), clearance as there is contact, metal to metal. In normal production it has to be so. Best case, custom fitted and cut threads are of course, better, but still far from a solid piece of metal or even a welded or brazed joint. (Most folks tend to forget, or don't know that threaded joints are just not a good pressure holding method, without being tapered, (for leakage reasons), and pretty massive wall re-enforcement thickness.)

Threads are better for axial stresses, but even then, if the actual thread engagement is only a percentage, when the axial force overcomes that strength, and the threads, "give" just a tiny bit, they can then become loose. The "wrenching" tightness must be more than that stress to prevent it from happening. "Finger tight" is most likely never going to accomplish that!

On our BULs, most of the factory chokes stayed tight, but all needed checking now and then. Some of the after market chokes were a little better and some considerably worse!

Now, using the PolyChoke II and the spanner wrench that comes with it, (remember, one has to twist the outer cone to change choke settings here), there has been no loosening whatsoever! And I am loving not only that fact, but the ease of adjustment. The only down side that I can see is that the choke will likely have to be cleaned more often than that sweet Benelli, non fouling action! Especially if one has shot 3 or 5 flats through it, at the cylinder bore setting, and then tries to tighten it up, say to full! It will go, but takes a bit of twisting, backing off and then cinching it down again. That dirt has to go somewhere! :lol:

So as Fred says, "Get them tight to start with" or keep checking them!

And I agree with Kirby, in general. However I am finding that these longer chokes that every manufacturer seems to be coming up with, is a blessing. Longer means that the alignment just has to be better from the git go! And with the big name manufacturers, and modern digital equipment, (used right, by experienced and caring operators), should also help alleviate some of the miss alignment problems that have been seen previously. (Yeah, sure? :roll: )

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:37 am 
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Location: Missouri
Thanks for all your answers.

My gun shoots exactly where it points so I'm not disappointed with alignment at all.

Fred, the teflon tape may be a temporary solution. Thanks.

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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:25 pm 
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I've never had one come out unexpectedly, but my chokes shoot loose on my SuperSport all the time, and talked to a another club member who has the same experience with his SS. At clays, I just check the choke after each station.

I do wish the chokes that came with SS had slots for tightening with a choke wrench. I've got a Briley Light Mod on order right now. If I really like it, I may switch entire to a set of Briley Spectrums for my SS.


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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:54 pm 
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Location: MN.
I haven’t even tried my factory chokes yet in my BUL. It came with Cyl. IC and a full. I use full and fuller for trap but have no intentions on shooting the BUL for trap.

Seminole and Angle Port chokes are made without notches and are seated by hand, they also will work loose fairly easy if not seated tight. With the Angle Ports I snap my fingers right before they seat and very seldom do they work loose.

If you don’t want to start using Teflon tape use a thick grease on the threads. It usually works very well too but is messy. I change or clean chokes enough that I don’t use either anymore and out of habit reach out and check\tighten them often. A habit I’m trying to break with the Poly Choke!

I have more than a thousand dollars in Briley chokes (doesn’t take long) for various guns but have started using Angle Port chokes. 5 chokes for $100 and the patterns are as well as the Spectrums that I own. I happened to have an Angle Port skeet choke for an Optima Plus and is 723, fits the BUL perfectly. And I’m very happy with the breaks using it. Still undecided on the Poly choke and if I go with tubes will get another set of the Angle Ports.


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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:15 am 
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Thanks, ColdIron. I'll look into the Angle Ports. Cute pup in your avatar. Is that a toller?


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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:46 am 
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Damn MGF your good, most everyone else wants to know what type of “mix” he is. I use him on Upland even though he is technically a duck dog, he is a hard hunter. First bird he delivered to hand was a wounded grouse he tolled out of a Beaver pond at 9 months old. The dog was afraid to jump in at the time and ran back and forth on the bank. The grouse swam right toward him until about 10 feet away the Toller couldn’t take it any more and finally jumped in. If you can call a winged grouse in water swimming, it is not exactly their strong suit. Now I can't keep the Toller out of the water and even put a wading pool in the front yard for him.

The Angle Ports seem to excel in Browning guns for some reason from what I’ve seen. In my 682 Gold E Trap they are very equal to the Briley and not much but a little bit better than factory flush. Wish all chokes threw as pretty a pattern as my B. Rizzini target gun, I’d put that one up with a Kolar or Seitz in pattern distribution. I almost walked out with a Sig TR 26 inch that felt pretty good knowing the pattern would most likely be there using the B. Rizzini extended factory choke tubes. The BUL just felt right except for having one tube\choke. I've never owned an auto it is a big change but at least the saftey is in the right place for a single bbl. Deep down inside a part of me would like to pull a triple on grouse someday. LOL even with 3 shots one ruff grouse is still a great deal most days.


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 Post subject: Re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:13 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:03 pm
Posts: 596
Location: Lynnwood, Washington
mtjim wrote:
Anyone else experienced choke tubes shooting loose on the Ultra Lite.

I tighten the choke like I always tighten my chokes on my O/U and then after a few stations on the Skeet range I notice that it can be turned by my finger!

What am I doing wrong? I'm using a lubricant - don't know what brand but it's the one I've used for years.

Thanks for any insight in to this worrisome problem.


I have the same problem with my M2. It happens with the factory chokes as well as the Briley extended chokes that I have for it. I just remember to tighten them up between stations or after a lot of shooting in the blind.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:17 pm 
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Cold Iron wrote:
Damn MGF your good, most everyone else wants to know what type of “mix” he is.


Not at all that good, just lucky enough to have hunted over a toller once. Our guy with the dog had to cancel one day, and the preserve operator went home and came back with his toller. She was only about 2 and not an upland veteran and it was early season, with a lot of high cover still up. But she was a great little dog. Seemed to catch on very quickly of was expected of her, hunted in range and seemed large-hearted as all hell. She seemed to really want to get the job done for us ... and she did. We got our shots. I thought she was a bright, fantastic little dog.

You've got a handsome dog there, my friend.


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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:26 pm 
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>>At clays, I just check the choke after each station<<

Ditto that. No biggie....


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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:55 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 7
I don't know if this is an obvious thing to people here, but I just bought a new M2, and...

... the gunsmith who sold it gave me this special choke tube grease/oil/thing. He said that during normal shooting small particles (atom sized) get to the threads and start to eat them off slowly, sometimes rapidly and it ruins the choke tube threads.

I shoot a lot and tend to keep guns at a very good condition. Any tips to keep my "wife" looking brand new and in fit condition are helpful. I know people who clean their guns once a year. Don't complain if your guns bow up.

The choke tube grease should be applied every time a choke tube is inserted again in to the barrel. Of course you should clean it first and then apply the grease to the threads and mainly to the threads.

Hope this was a helpful tip. Somehow I think the grease will only loosen the already broken choke tube??? Maybe some of you smithies should comment on this choke tube grease thing...?


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 Post subject: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:58 am 
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I've tried Birchwood Casey, ProGold, Gunslick graphite, heavier synthetic oils such as Tetra gun lube, etc. My SuperSport loosens 'em all up if the chokes are only put in by hand. It doesn't particularly worry me at clays. I just check 'em between stations.

That said, I rechecked and was wrong about slots in my earlier post on this thread. The Benelli extended chokes do have slots and will accept a Beretta wrench or a Briley speed wrench. You definitely want to use some decent lube if you finish putting 'em in with a wrench. Even with a wee amount of wrenching, they grab pretty good.

Either way, I really like my SS. Soft on the shoulder, hart on the target, dead-on reliable and easy to clean. I throw it in a gun slip, hit the range, come home and clean it in about 10 minutes without even taking a seat. Never thought I'd be so fond of a black synthetic & stainless steel shotgun, but there it is.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Chokes Shooting Loose on Ultra Lite
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:46 am 
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jugchoke wrote:
And I agree with Kirby, in general. However I am finding that these longer chokes that every manufacturer seems to be coming up with, is a blessing. Longer means that the alignment just has to be better from the git go! And with the big name manufacturers, and modern digital equipment, (used right, by experienced and caring operators), should also help alleviate some of the miss alignment problems that have been seen previously. (Yeah, sure? :roll: )

Clyde


And just yesterday, I checked a friends Winchester Select Energy and found very unacceptable barrel/choke divergence, at least to me. Stuck the laser bore sighter in the choke tube and whoa!


The bottom barrel was good, about 3/4 inch high at 13 yards, but the top one was about 3 inches low and left. Don't know if that fits Winchesters spec or not, but it seems a bit much to me!

Swapped the chokes and it repeated, confirming the problem, then checked the barrels without chokes, and they looked pretty good.

(Best $100 I ever spent, that laser bore sighter with the shotgun adapters!) The friend has it borrowed now, to check out the new gun he is getting because this one cracked the stock, almost immediately. And now he doesn't want to take a chance that the new barrels will be off as well!

Clyde




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