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 Post subject: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:01 am 
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I think this discussion has already been going on here:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... sc&start=0

The sticky in the HD forums which I totally missed and thus wasted about 1 hour of my life typing up the first post :P

Out of respect for posters, I'm going to keep the thread open.



Caveat
I've read the thread debates on various forums regarding "bird shot are for birds" but I'm unsatisfied with the dialogue because I want HARD FACTS and not just philosophical debates regarding "excessive force" or "how would you feel if you killed a man" kind of thing. I'm not saying these discussions are not valid, I just see them being more productive in a face-to-face dialogue and I don't see Internet messaging boards to be the most productive venue.


Please provide empirical evidence & case studies as much as possible.


The Questions
1. If a human gets shot with bird shot within 10-15 feet, how much physical trauma will occur if the individual is wearing jeans and a thick jacket?

2. Will the wounds inflicted on the individual be enough to stop a random burglar from progressing? (This is purposely excluding those who break in to your house with the intention of taking your life. That is beyond the scope of the question.)


Some References
1. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
2. "I am totally confident that a shotgun blast inside a house at any distance will have the most drunken, out of his skull, crack head seeking medical assistance, if he survives. I have been to quite a few home invasion incidents over the years. The perp doesn't want a second shot, believe it or not. It either drops them in their tracks or sends them out the way they came in yelping. A call to the nearest ER finds them begging for help, if they make it that far." - https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... c&start=15




Last edited by jeffersonkim on Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:07 am 
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http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.



6 Inch Crush Cavity? Ouch.


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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:10 am 
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:idea: Is this topic really necessary?? :?


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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:18 am 
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wb wrote:
:idea: Is this topic really necessary?? :?


My thoughts, exactly.

Bruce


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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:29 am 
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Sorry I cannot answer specifically. At about 80 yards I can tell you that a #8 field load penetrated me many years ago about 1/8" in several places. Thank heavens for a Filson style coat, hat, and my shotgun that protected the rest of me. I saw it coming when I found myself looking at the idiot the wrong way down his gun barrel, and ducked.
I can also relate that about one week after that very incident, we struck a hog that I would estimate weighed 450 pounds with the car, and severely injuring it. We were on the way to a dove hunt. Farmer asked us to put the hog out of it's misery, and my friend's father administered the coup de grace at about 10 to 12 feet, with a 12 gauge #8 field load, which is all we had. That hog's head literally exploded, sending brains, pieces of bone, etc. 50 feet in several directions. The light tan '64 Impala, which had not had anything on it, looked like it had hit a guts truck. It made a very indelible impression on me for the rest of my life. I would have never dreamed that load would have had that much destructive force.
P.S. - As for appropriate - why does one need a door breaker barrel thingy to defend their own home? Just wondering.


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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:27 am 
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Here's all the answers you need.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

As you can see, bird shot isn't adequate.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:42 am 
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adam11082 wrote:
Here's all the answers you need.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

As you can see, bird shot isn't adequate.


Here is the answer. :wink:

Additionally, some folks mistakenly say, "But at close distances,a load of birdshot acts just like a solid piece of lead!"

That is not correct.

See here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm

As I noted in another post:

"I weighed 10 of the individual #6 shot and they weighed a total of 18 grains.

That means each pellet weighs 1.8 grains.

Some folks have mistakenly said, "A load of #6 is like getting shot with a solid piece of lead weighing 600 grains".

Nope. Not at all. Because that 600 grain load is composed of 333 #6 sized shot, each weighing 1.8 grains.

And the penetration of the shot is dependant on the weight of "each pellet", not the total weight.

And a 1.8 grain pellet will not penetrate very far into a goblin.

That is why birdshot is for little birds and buckshot is for bad guys."

Simple physics, folks. :)

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:20 am 
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40 some years ago a friend of mine died instantly when he was shot with a low base 7 1/2 at close range. I don't know how close, I wasn't there. Stll a sad thought after all these years.


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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:25 am 
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coolbreeze01 wrote:
40 some years ago a friend of mine died instantly when he was shot with a low base 7 1/2 at close range. I don't know how close, I wasn't there. Stll a sad thought after all these years.


Sorry to hear about your loss.

I have no doubt that in many instances a #8 shot will fatally injure a human at close ranges. In an instance of an intruder in your home, what if he is wearing a triple-goose-feather-filled down jacket? That birdshot is going to have a hell of a time penetrating at any distance and may not have the effects you are hoping for. It may just piss him off. So error on the side of caution and get some federal 00 buck.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:29 am 
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brucestorey wrote:
wb wrote:
:idea: Is this topic really necessary?? :?


My thoughts, exactly.

Bruce

It would seem that the OP thought so. If you are uncomfortable with the topic, ignore it.
I will say that it should have been posted in the HD forum though.
OP:
The "hard facts" are in the stickied post over in the HD board. O_P's site has more info.

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:32 am 
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jeffersonkim wrote:
2. "I am totally confident that a shotgun blast inside a house at any distance will have the most drunken, out of his skull, crack head seeking medical assistance, if he survives.

Probably. The problem is, what does he do in the interim? Is he still capable of doing the homeowner harm? In many cases, yes. The issue is not if the wound is fatal, it is does it stop him. While a birdshot wound can be fatal, and in many cases is, how long does the process of exsanguination take?
Quote:
I have been to quite a few home invasion incidents over the years. The perp doesn't want a second shot, believe it or not. It either drops them in their tracks or sends them out the way they came in yelping. A call to the nearest ER finds them begging for help, if they make it that far." - https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... c&start=15

Unfortunately, that is not always the case. It does not always drop them in their tracks or send them yelping.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:43 am 
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"Overkill" beats getting killed everytime!

Better to be sure of your background at the shot if you take it;
than wonder if your little bird pellets can penetrate Levi's, jackets, etc.... etc.

Slidehammer


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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:44 am 
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Just use a f**king bomb!!!

Do you people really sit around worrying about this stuff?

Buy 2 Dobermans problem solved!

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:10 am 
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BERETTADT10 wrote:
Just use a f**king bomb!!!

Do you people really sit around worrying about this stuff?

Buy 2 Dobermans problem solved!

Personally, I'm not worried about it. That doesn't meant that I am not prepared or have not considered a possible eventuality. Why do you equate that with some type of obsessive behavior?
And thanks for your reasoned and enlightened contribution to the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:53 am 
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Slidehammer wrote:
Better to be sure of your background at the shot if you take it;
than wonder if your little bird pellets can penetrate Levi's, jackets, etc.... etc.

Slidehammer


What if your sure that the background behind the badguy is your son's bedroom door and you have no other shot and you have 00 buck or slugs? You are plenty armed to take care of the badguy, but will you shoot since you know your background? That has been a big ? throughout these posts. If we as protectors have to be so aware of our soroundings how come a BG cant do the same and purposley position himself between you and your loved ones? In turn causing a split second decision on your part. A lot of people miss the point of these questions. Not nessaccarily this post but the ones asking is birdshot suffecient while not risking other lives or property. People can give their opinion. Those that have TOLD the OP's they must use buckshot or slugs are not "wrong" but are "in the wrong". Anyone can tell why they shoot what they shoot and give reasons/examples to support, but nobody should TELL anyone they have to use a certain anything. Only the people who have to impliment these applications can decide whats best for them since their the only one who knows their own circumstances. All we can do is provide information so that the OP can make an educated decision.
On to the question of this post. How thick are most people? I'm 6'2" 240lbs and approximatly 12-14" thick from my shoulders to my chest and yea I even have a little bit of the man boobs, average build. 6" penetration is halfway deep. How deep do you people think organs are? They are not paper thin they have mass too. Your heart and lungs are less than 6" deep inside your chest cavity. Every feel your ribs? Your lungs are DIRECTLY behind them and your heart neatly nestled in between your lungs just to the inside of your left lung. Your lungs actually wrap around the side and behind your heart thats why doctors listen to your back too. Feel your ribs in the back? Lungs directly behind them too, there again less than 6" deep. If down coats and bluejeans were so impact resistant then the police wouldnt need kevlar vests for protection they could dress like they were stuck in the 80's.

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:59 am 
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jeffersonkim wrote:
Caveat
I've read the thread debates on various forums regarding "bird shot are for birds" but I'm unsatisfied with the dialogue because I want HARD FACTS and not just philosophical debates regarding "excessive force" or "how would you feel if you killed a man" kind of thing. I'm not saying these discussions are not valid, I just see them being more productive in a face-to-face dialogue and I don't see Internet messaging boards to be the most productive venue.


You seem more than a bit crabby.

This arena is both extremely well-known and well-documented.

Here you go: http://www.css.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/cprc/tr/tr-1998-03.pdf

That should satisfy your curiosity.


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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:20 am 
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deke12ga wrote:
What if your sure that the background behind the badguy is your son's bedroom door and you have no other shot and you have 00 buck or slugs? You are plenty armed to take care of the badguy, but will you shoot since you know your background? That has been a big ? throughout these posts.

The Q&D answer is you take a knee and angle the shot upwards if possible. Otherwise, you may have to reposition yourself. There is not always a good answer; you may have to make the best choice of several bad ones.
Quote:
Those that have TOLD the OP's they must use buckshot or slugs are not "wrong" but are "in the wrong".

Disagree. And I have yet to see anyone suggest slugs as a defenisve load and it runs counter to pretty much every reliable source that I've seen/heard/been taught from.
Quote:
Anyone can tell why they shoot what they shoot and give reasons/examples to support, but nobody should TELL anyone they have to use a certain anything.

I don't think anyone has said that someone else "has to" use buckshot. There has been a lot of effort to inform the birdshot users why it is not the best choice.
Quote:
Only the people who have to impliment these applications can decide whats best for them since their the only one who knows their own circumstances. [All we can do is provide information so that the OP can make an educated decision.

Totally agree, and I think that most others do as well.
Quote:
On to the question of this post. How thick are most people? I'm 6'2" 240lbs and approximatly 12-14" thick from my shoulders to my chest and yea I even have a little bit of the man boobs, average build. 6" penetration is halfway deep. How deep do you people think organs are? They are not paper thin they have mass too. Your heart and lungs are less than 6" deep inside your chest cavity. Every feel your ribs? Your lungs are DIRECTLY behind them and your heart neatly nestled in between your lungs just to the inside of your left lung. Your lungs actually wrap around the side and behind your heart thats why doctors listen to your back too. Feel your ribs in the back? Lungs directly behind them too, there again less than 6" deep.

You make a common yet incorrect assumption. You are relying on a perpendicular shot impacting directly upon the thorax. The problem is that you may have a shot that impacts at angle, you may have to shoot through an arm, and that arm may have a weapon of some sort as well that could block/deflect the shot. There may also be a difference in elevation. Lots of variables. The 12" standard comes from the FBI, which determined that it was the best goal for terminal ballistics. They devoted a little time and money to the problem in researching it. So no, 4-6" of penetration is not optimal.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:24 am 
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"That is why birdshot is for little birds and buckshot is for bad guys."

Amen!


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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:24 am 
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Thank you all.

Thank you for the benchmarks demonstrating bird shot. I'll be sure to read through it. That was EXACTLY what I was looking for :)

I think I wrote the post at 2:00 AM after numerous rereads. I probably should've posted it in the morning to reread it again if you thought I was crabby. I didn't intend it to read that way. I wasn't in the mood for emoticons :)


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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:27 am 
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m24shooter wrote:
I will say that it should have been posted in the HD forum though.
OP:
The "hard facts" are in the stickied post over in the HD board. O_P's site has more info.


Woops! THanks for the pointer. And if someone wants to move this thread, I'm perfectly fine with that. I realized that after I posted.




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