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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:10 pm 
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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:14 am 
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e = (mv^2)/2 [kinetic energy equals one-half mass times velocity squared]

the formula which is mostly bound to newtons second law (basically a unit of time away from being the same equation)

F = ma [Force equals mass times acceleration]

the inability of multiple pellets to maintain a rigid body is the downfall of birdshot. to think of a round of birdshot as a slug makes no sense, becuase as soon as this "slug" becomes a deformable body the mechanics immediately change for the worse.

i think ron burgundy's qoute might be better applied to the person who shoots an intruder with birdshot. when the intruder shows no sign of stopping the home defender would say "i immediatly regret this decision." like m24shooter said most of the argument for birdshot is based on the assumption that an invader will gladly give up, which has generally been proven to not be the case.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:47 pm 
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Think of it this way, I would much rather have a major league pitcher throw 5.1 oz of sand at me than have him throw a baseball at me. Same physics at birdshot verses buckshot/slugs.


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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:21 pm 
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A long dead thread, I note...but in case anyone peeks in at it I'd offer a few thoughts of my own.

There is a tendency here and elsewhere for people to use anecdotal evidence to support their claims for, or against, birdshot as a home defense round. Anecdotes are interesting, but not much good for evidence. We probably have hundreds of shotgun shootings per year in the U.S., and you can easily mine stories that support birdshot...or undermine it.

One example offered is the story of Officer Richard Decoatesworth. Decoatesworth was shot in the face with birdshot during a routine traffic stop. The weapon was reported as a sawed off shotgun. He returned fire, pursued the suspect for a ways, and then sat down due to blood loss. He survived.

Another story is of a man shot in the chin with birdshot, leaving a hole about the size of a quarter. It killed him.

Taken by themselves, each story counters the other, and we're left with the need to mine even more stories to support our own little biases concerning the matter. We see this with other arguments that aren't necessarily firearm related.

Dig a bit deeper and we find that in Decoatesworth's case the birdshot struck his lower left jaw. Pictures of him wearing a bandage on his chin are easily found. It left him scarred.

In looking for those pictures of Decoatesworth I found an X-ray of a man who had been hit more fully with birdshot...but it is impossible to tell the degree of injury he suffered. If the pellets penetrated his skull to any degree, it looks like he would have either died or suffered significant neurological damage. At least fifty of them hit the skull area. His right eye took at least a dozen pellets. Did it instantly incapacitate him? I don't know...nor can I speculate.

Neither, of course, was a torso hit.

I'm not making a play for or against birdshot in a HD role. My point is this: Stories are interesting...but each anecdote is ONE data point. Stories can be inflated and misinterpreted. Details can be left out. Variables can be ignored. They do not settle arguments very well.

Regards,

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:26 pm 
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That's why most of us look at empirical testing criteria based on what has been shown to reliably stop aggressive behavior. Not on stories of a guy who was killed by a cap gun versus the guy who survived a shot through the lungs and heart with a 30mm round.

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:52 pm 
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How dare you challenge feelings, opinion, and anectdotal storytime with empirical testing, post mortems, and the field of external ballistics? GTFORFN!

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:29 pm 
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I've taken my shotgun out and shot birds. Birdshot barely kills birds. Remember it is trying to balance taking the bird down with not completely destroying it so you have something left to eat or stuff. Nuff said. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:35 pm 
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sjohnny wrote:
Blah blah blah empirical testing criteria blah blah blah


You and your fancy words.

The only "big word testing big word" that matters when it comes to bird shot is the "Cheney Test". If the former VP couldn't kill a lawyer with a round of bird shot, then what good is BS against a person?

After all, a lawyer is the only thing more lacking in substance than a pro-BS for HD argument.

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:46 pm 
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HptmnMuller wrote:
The only "big word testing big word" that matters when it comes to bird shot is the "Cheney Test". If the former VP couldn't kill a lawyer with a round of bird shot, then what good is BS against a person?

After all, a lawyer is the only thing more lacking in substance than a pro-BS for HD argument.


Now why the heck didn't I think of using this as an example?

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:56 pm 
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For what it's worth... 22 years ago one of my close friends was shot in the back with a 12 gauge at about 10-12 yards. 8 shot, 2 3/4". He was wearing jeans, a t-shirt and a light fall jacket. He had BB's from the lower part of his back to the middle of his butt cheek. Only 63 pellets got him. We were able to pick some of the pellets out the next day since some barely penetrated. We picked some of the other pellets out months later. I still see him several times per year, and as far as I know half of the BB's are still in him. The deepest BB's were in about an inch or so. The doctors told him that they would not remove the BB's since the surgery would cause more harm than good. He and another friend went to their vehicle to leave a party. When they opened the door they found someone in the car stealing. My friend was given a count of "3", before he was going to get shot. He was shot in the back, while running away, on "2". My car was parked right next to his and I left about 1 minute before he was going to. The thieves were in his car while I got into mine and drove away. I will be seeing him at my wife's Christmas party this weekend. My buddy is glad it was birdshot and not buckshot. No BS fellas.


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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:10 pm 
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One of my buddy's drummer in his band was shot more or less point blank with bird shot on the forearm. He still plays the drum so you can make up your own mind how much damage it does.

On a similar note, I was having a nice fat late season mallard for supper on Monday and ended up spitting out 6 shots left inside one of the thighs. For anyone who never ate a wild duck before, the leg is about the size of your thumb and the bone is about the size of the power cord on a laptop. I've drawn my own conclusions based on what I've seen.

I got lots of birdshots tho, never know when them crazy quails are coming.


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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:18 pm 
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Another one for the pile.

When I was still in High School, one of the family pit bulls got loose and went for a run around the "neighborhood" (we lived on a forest hillside, nearest neighbor was >100 meters away). One of the neighbors hit it with a round of bird shot from approximately 10 meters away. When the dog came home, tail wagging, still stupid-happy to have gone for a run, with impacts o' plenty where the shot hit her.

Some of the hits broke enough of the skin for blood to spot the surface, with nothing after wiping away. Other hits were only indicated by slight reddening of the skin, and despite her running around after getting shot, some of it was still lodged in her fur.

Over two decades ago, this taught me two things:
1) My neighbor's 20-something, stay-at-home son was a real POS.
2) Birdshot is worthless against anything other than rodents and birds.

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:26 pm 
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I agree with yer point #2. Not so much on point #1.

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:33 pm 
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My pondering and research of this inquiry leads me to believe that a birdshot shell is unable to pierce bone when the BBs have spread far enough apart before hitting the target (in this case, the BBs wouldn't even make it past the muscle tissue)... However, at close quarters, the same shell, with BBs closely grouped together, would cause the shot to act much like one dense ball (in this case, the BBs will work together to blow someone's head completely apart)


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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:27 pm 
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Depends entirely on how close they are when you shoot them, how fast they are launched, and how big the "birdshot" is.

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:12 pm 
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Recently went to an "all Rabbit shoot" at local sporting clays club---it was around Halloween so they had s lot of pumpkins scattered around the ground where the rabbits were thrown--a lot of pumpkins were shot both deliberately and accidently during the course of the day at varying distances---a 12g load of 7 1/2's or 8's at 10 yards will blow up a pumpkin---how big is your living room or hallway---all I know is that at social distances a load of birdshot to the face is going to ruin your day big time.


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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:04 pm 
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possumman wrote:
Recently went to an "all Rabbit shoot" at local sporting clays club---it was around Halloween so they had s lot of pumpkins scattered around the ground where the rabbits were thrown--a lot of pumpkins were shot both deliberately and accidently during the course of the day at varying distances---a 12g load of 7 1/2's or 8's at 10 yards will blow up a pumpkin---how big is your living room or hallway---all I know is that at social distances a load of birdshot to the face is going to ruin your day big time.


Pumpkins and watermelon do not behave like living tissue. People have most definitely been killed with bird shot, but the same can be said about pellet guns and slingshots. If you willing to risk your life and your family’s lives on something that MAY stop an intruder go ahead, but i am going to use a proven man stopper,Buck shot.

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Last edited by Banshee on Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:47 pm 
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Some pretty good stories. Let me add one. Many years ago when I was very young in Jr. High, I hunted with a certain friend. He died a couple years ago. Anyway, this character (my friend) was "a few bricks shy of a load" as the saying goes. We were all gun nuts & we ran up on a guy he knew while hunting in a popular area where HS kids hunted & looked for trouble. The two of them immediately get into an argument on how far a load of #6 shot could hurt you. Ed (my friend) said it could hurt you pretty good at 100 yds.. The other guy said "I would drop my drawers to #6's at 100 yds.". Ed said, "Oh yea!" They went back & forth for a while & the other guy backed off on dropping his drawers but he did pace off a looonngg 100 paces. It was cold & he was wearing a nice lined leather jacket. Ed wasn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree but this guy could have stared in the "Dumb & Dumber" comedy! He turned up the collar of his jacket to protect his neck & turned his back to Ed then, started dancing around hollering "shoot me, shoot me". So Ed screwed his poly choke on his 20 ga. down to full choke & shot him! It was quiet for a couple seconds, then the yelling started! The leather jacket slowed the 6's down enough that none of them went through the skin but he had big red whelps all over his back & legs & he was in PAIN!!! I will venture a wild guess that was the first & last time he ever asked anybody to shoot him!!


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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:09 pm 
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BERETTADT10 wrote:
Just use a f**king bomb!!!

Do you people really sit around worrying about this stuff?

Buy 2 Dobermans problem solved!


Doesn't really work when your dogs are shot and killed first. My ~120lb German Shepard was no match for the pickup that ran him over on their way to my house (I live in a rural area about 1200' from the public road. They apparently saw me coming back from feeding cattle and left.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:13 pm 
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marist89 wrote:
BERETTADT10 wrote:
Buy 2 Dobermans problem solved!

EXACTLY! Quite frankly, even a dog from the pound will scare the bejezus out of any robber.


Just like the sound of "racking an empty chambered pump shotgun".

My dead German Shephard would probably disagree with your statement. Just because one person is scared does not mean the next is or would be.



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