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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:33 am 
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BERETTADT10 wrote:
Just use a f**king bomb!!!

Do you people really sit around worrying about this stuff?

Buy 2 Dobermans problem solved!


:roll:

See, This here is why the tactical platypus prefers to stay in the basement.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:35 am 
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I think this discussion has already been going on here:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... sc&start=0

The sticky in the HD forums which I totally missed and thus wasted about 1 hour of my life typing up the first post :P

Out of respect for posters, I'm going to keep the thread open.


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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:44 am 
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BERETTADT10 wrote:
Buy 2 Dobermans problem solved!

EXACTLY! Quite frankly, even a dog from the pound will scare the bejezus out of any robber.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:52 pm 
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marist89 wrote:
EXACTLY! Quite frankly, even a dog from the pound will scare the bejezus out of any robber.
(red added for emphasis)

Y'all must have different robbers up there. Glad to hear it.


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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:53 pm 
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marist89 wrote:
BERETTADT10 wrote:
Buy 2 Dobermans problem solved!

EXACTLY! Quite frankly, even a dog from the pound will scare the bejezus out of any robber.



Like this one?

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:01 pm 
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DeGriz wrote:
marist89 wrote:
BERETTADT10 wrote:
Buy 2 Dobermans problem solved!

EXACTLY! Quite frankly, even a dog from the pound will scare the bejezus out of any robber.



Like this one?

Image


Snowbell kinda scares me, DeGriz. :P

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:04 pm 
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deke12ga wrote:

On to the question of this post. How thick are most people? I'm 6'2" 240lbs and approximatly 12-14" thick from my shoulders to my chest and yea I even have a little bit of the man boobs, average build. 6" penetration is halfway deep. How deep do you people think organs are? They are not paper thin they have mass too. Your heart and lungs are less than 6" deep inside your chest cavity. Every feel your ribs? Your lungs are DIRECTLY behind them and your heart neatly nestled in between your lungs just to the inside of your left lung. Your lungs actually wrap around the side and behind your heart thats why doctors listen to your back too. Feel your ribs in the back? Lungs directly behind them too, there again less than 6" deep. If down coats and bluejeans were so impact resistant then the police wouldnt need kevlar vests for protection they could dress like they were stuck in the 80's.


This is a common misunderstanding, Deke.

Look at this site, especially the drawings at the top of the page:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

If you read the article, it explains why the FBI set the minimum penetration at 12 inches.

A very interesting read. :)

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:05 pm 
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I was thinking more along the lines of something like this!

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:14 pm 
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Quote:
If down coats and bluejeans were so impact resistant then the police wouldnt need kevlar vests for protection they could dress like they were stuck in the 80's.


I think police use kevlar vests because the majority of criminals use a projectile that penetrates more than birdshot.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:33 pm 
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BERETTADT10 wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of something like this!

Image


Any dog that can kill and eat a dinosaur down to the bone, scares me too. :P

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:48 pm 
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I work at city hall where the police station is located. You would be surpirsed. I have been into the evidence room and there are by far more shotguns in there than any other type weapon. And the officers have told most of them have "birdshot" loads in them when confiscated. Most are actually turkey type rounds though. 2.75 magnum 4s seem to be the most on average confiscated, while the rest are usually the wally world promo junk. I guess its because its cheap and you can get a lot of it, i dunno. There are some that have been taken with buckshot and slugs too. Remeber no one has come along and said they have actually used any of this stuff (bird or buckshot) on a person to tell how effective it is or isnt. Ballistic gelatin cant be scared or tell you that it hurt so bad it wished it was dead. I think if you shot someone in the arm with birdshot that even if they could still use that arm they would be more worried with getting away with the other arm as well as the rest them intact. I think that anyone shot with birdshot after entering a home would feel the same as Ron Burgandy when he jumped into the bear pit at the zoo, he said "I imediatly regret this decision." :lol:

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Last edited by deke12ga on Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:50 pm 
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BERETTADT10 wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of something like this!

Image



I'm betting Snowbell could probably it take it down. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:34 pm 
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BERETTADT10 wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of something like this!

Image


I am starting to see the police logic that tells you if the "home invader" comes in the front door, you should go out the backdoor!

What is being discussed here is serious business. Do you want to trust that to a dog? Granted, most would be intimidated by a lean, mean, killin' machine.... But what if they weren't? What if this ol' boy in your house was the exception rather than the rule... What if he was well versed with the handgun that was with him.. What if he even sacrificed a couple of teeth holes in his arm so he could pop your Doberman behind the head with a round? THEN WHAT DO YOU DO???
You can't look at this situation like a poker game... Relying on a dog, even a bad good dog, is like playing with a 4 card hand.

deke12ga wrote:
I think if you shot someone in the arm with birdshot that even if they could still use that arm they would be more worried with getting away with the other arm as well as the rest them intact. I think that anyone shot with birdshot after entering a home would feel the same as Ron Burgandy when he jumped into the bear pit at the zoo, he said "I imediatly regret this decision."


Deke,

It doesn't matter one fly speck what the guy peppered with birdshot feels or thinks.... The only think that matters is that he can't still hurt you. Compassion can get you killed. Serious business is serious! Get there mentally or get out like the cops say!

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:51 pm 
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deke12ga wrote:
I work at city hall where the police station is located. You would be surpirsed. I have been into the evidence room and there are by far more shotguns in there than any other type weapon. And the officers have told most of them have "birdshot" loads in them when confiscated. Most are actually turkey type rounds though. 2.75 magnum 4s seem to be the most on average confiscated, while the rest are usually the wally world promo junk. I guess its because its cheap and you can get a lot of it, i dunno.

Wow, that's great info Deke. Just one question: did you ask the officers what is in their duty shotguns? Birdshot? That might be a little more informative than what some evidence room shotgun had in it.
Quote:
There are some that have been taken with buckshot and slugs too. Remeber no one has come along and said they have actually used any of this stuff (bird or buckshot) on a person to tell how effective it is or isnt.

Actually, Deke, I've posted the example of the Philadelphia officer that got shot in the face with a 12 gauge using birdshot. I remember you saying something about "it could have been a .410" and then said that at close range birdshot acts like a slug. So the info has been posted, you just don't believe it.
Quote:
Ballistic gelatin cant be scared or tell you that it hurt so bad it wished it was dead.

Correct. It is empirical media that shows what is needed in terms of measurable physical performance in a round that correlates with reliable wounding performance. That's a lot more reliable in terms of predicting the ability to quickly end a fight than relying on the feelings of the person shot as you are seeming to want to rely upon.
Quote:
I think if you shot someone in the arm with birdshot that even if they could still use that arm they would be more worried with getting away with the other arm as well as the rest them intact.

Have I mentioned Officer Decoatsworth recently?
Quote:
I think that anyone shot with birdshot after entering a home would feel the same as Ron Burgandy when he jumped into the bear pit at the zoo, he said "I imediatly regret this decision." :lol:

You keeps saying "I think." You're free to do so. Of course, that doesn't make it true.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:00 pm 
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dont forget the minimum penetration depths used by the FBI are depth in inches of ballistic gelatin, not human tissue.
ballistic gelatin is a convenient medium for testing, but it does not model the human body... someone kept mentioning that 6" penetration would reach their heart, in human tissue, 6" would make it to the heart. the test said birdshot penetrated as far as 5 or 6" but on average only made it 4" in ballistic gelatin.
different tissues have different densities, different clothing will also effect the outcome, especially a 1.8grain projectile.

another key note would be if someone could dig up the numbers as to how many people are high on one drug or another when they commit a crime. i think you would be surprised.


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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:06 pm 
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jeffersonkim wrote:
Edit

2. Will the wounds inflicted on the individual be enough to stop a random burglar from progressing? (This is purposely excluding those who break in to your house with the intention of taking your life. That is beyond the scope of the question.)

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... c&start=15


By what is implied in this statement, I think jeffersonkim might want to re evaluate his approach to home defense. I interpret this to imply that one might be willing to shoot a killer or rapist with buck shot or what ever it takes to stop him, but would only want to shoot a common burglar with bird shot.

In my state (and my personal ethics) I will not shoot, or even point a weapon at anyone unless I am afraid that that person is a threat to my life or that of a loved one. Even brandishing a weapon to protect mere property (TV car etc) is illegal and I would personally have a difficult time with my conscious if I were to kill somebody over something that my insurance would replace. So If I ever have to point a gun at another person, it will be in grave circumstances and I will take whatever action that I can to stop the threat and I will want the most effective tools that I can have. With that in mind, I would not bother with birdshot.

Caveat: If someone breaks into my home and remains there after they know that there are people in the house, I will assume that they are there to do me harm. My plan is to gather the family, hunker down in a predetermined room and call the police. I will attempt to stop anyone trying to get into that room with buckshot after a very short warning. If they manage to seal any of my possessions while I am waiting for the police to arrive, that will be for the police to handle.


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 Post subject: Re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:27 pm 
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Fish Slayer wrote:
jeffersonkim wrote:
Edit

2. Will the wounds inflicted on the individual be enough to stop a random burglar from progressing? (This is purposely excluding those who break in to your house with the intention of taking your life. That is beyond the scope of the question.)

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... c&start=15


By what is implied in this statement, I think jeffersonkim might want to re evaluate his approach to home defense. I interpret this to imply that one might be willing to shoot a killer or rapist with buck shot or what ever it takes to stop him, but would only want to shoot a common burglar with bird shot.

In my state (and my personal ethics) I will not shoot, or even point a weapon at anyone unless I am afraid that that person is a threat to my life or that of a loved one. Even brandishing a weapon to protect mere property (TV car etc) is illegal and I would personally have a difficult time with my conscious if I were to kill somebody over something that my insurance would replace. So If I ever have to point a gun at another person, it will be in grave circumstances and I will take whatever action that I can to stop the threat and I will want the most effective tools that I can have. With that in mind, I would not bother with birdshot.

Caveat: If someone breaks into my home and remains there after they know that there are people in the house, I will assume that they are there to do me harm. My plan is to gather the family, hunker down in a predetermined room and call the police. I will attempt to stop anyone trying to get into that room with buckshot after a very short warning. If they manage to seal any of my possessions while I am waiting for the police to arrive, that will be for the police to handle.


Perfectly put Fish Slayer. When it comes to protecting yourself and your family, you want the best tools possible....bottom line. Now if I had a 9mm pistol, it would not be loaded 115gr FMJ, it would be loaded with 147gr JHP....why you ask? Because it gives me an edge over the bad guy. I'm not going to assume that birdshot is gong to save my life, but I will assume that 9 .32 caliber projectiles will as long as I do my part. When I take that shot, it is because all other options are out the window.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:29 pm 
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https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... 47#1387447

I'm not offended :D I'm just desiring to read on real life examples rather than rhetoric and philosophy which is hard to really "argue" objectively over.

I'm in need of hearing someone post to be convinced of the necessity of buck shot in a HD situation: "I have a friend who shot an intruder with bird shot 2x, but the intruder was still able to maneuver and killed his entire family." I have yet to read on anything like this, and am interested in reading contrary evidence of a real life example.


Last edited by jeffersonkim on Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:33 pm 
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Once you shoot at an intruder, they will be fighting for their life if they're afraid you're going to kill them. It is amazing what people are able to endure and fight through in that circumstance.

If I had a big enough place, a couple of dobermans would be an option. But even a small dog's bark can help discourage a burglar.

As to shooting a rapist, don't assume it's justifiable (legally). From another thread, so I can't swear to it's accuracy, but I trust the person who posted it:

3) The definition of "Great Bodily Harm" varies as well. Using MN as an example, case law states that "rape does not meet the statutory definition of Great Bodily Harm". Again, something to think about (especially if you travel).

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:35 pm 
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QUOTE
"Wow, that's great info Deke. Just one question: did you ask the officers what is in their duty shotguns? Birdshot? That might be a little more informative than what some evidence room shotgun had in it."


I know whats in theres, its buckshot. But they use it in COMPLETLY DIFFERENT applications other than HD therfore having different needs than these topics discuss, therefore requiring different ammo.

QUOTE
"Actually, Deke, I've posted the example of the Philadelphia officer that got shot in the face with a 12 gauge using birdshot. I remember you saying something about "it could have been a .410" and then said that at close range birdshot acts like a slug. So the info has been posted, you just don't believe it."

I do believe it, Birdshot does act like a slug for 5-8' or until it hits something then it disperses transfering engery to its target. True it doesnt penetrate as deep as a slug but it will be effective to a degree. What degree is needed, I dont know. And I still dont know the distance the officer was shot at.

QUOTE
"Correct. It is empirical media that shows what is needed in terms of measurable physical performance in a round that correlates with reliable wounding performance. That's a lot more reliable in terms of predicting the ability to quickly end a fight than relying on the feelings of the person shot as you are seeming to want to rely upon."


Gelatin is great for testing ballistics and proving performance, in inanimate objects... The truth here is that feelings and reactions DO come into play in the real world with people. Yes thats a FACT! People feel and hurt, gelatin doesnt.

QUOTE
"Have I mentioned Officer Decoatsworth recently?"

Yea hes the poor guy that got shot that I would love to hear from to see what he thinks about birdshot.

QUOTE
"You keeps saying "I think." You're free to do so. Of course, that doesn't make it true."

Never said it was true, always said its my opinion and all I ever did was to provide other alternatives to questions asked by unknowing people. Just because buckshot is what you need doesnt mean its what someone else needs or even wants to use.

All I do know is that I'm just a good ole redneck boy that use to shoot things at close range with birdshot and it blew the $hiot out of stuff and based on what I've seen birdshot do to pumpkins, plywood, 2x4's, junk cars, books, steel drums, and pretty much anything else you can find at a landfill that can be shot I'd feel very comfortable using it in a HD situation at the distances allowed in my home.
[/quote]



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Last edited by deke12ga on Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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