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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:35 pm 
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Seriously, a dog is a joke unless it's trained to attack when the intruders get in. I had abeagle when someone tried to break into my house. He howled and barked and they still came in. If someone wants to get in, they will get in.



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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:42 pm 
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t_durden wrote:
dont forget the minimum penetration depths used by the FBI are depth in inches of ballistic gelatin, not human tissue.
ballistic gelatin is a convenient medium for testing, but it does not model the human body... someone kept mentioning that 6" penetration would reach their heart, in human tissue, 6" would make it to the heart. the test said birdshot penetrated as far as 5 or 6" but on average only made it 4" in ballistic gelatin.
different tissues have different densities, different clothing will also effect the outcome, especially a 1.8grain projectile.



No sir, that is incorrect.

Ballistic gelatin is designed and calibrated to mimic human flesh.

If a projectile penetrates 10 inches into ballistic gelatin, that means the projectile will penetrate on average 10 inches into a human body.

That's why professional laboratories use it to estimate the penetration of various rounds into a bad guy.

And the best tests usually include a layer of cloth, just like clothing, in front of the ballastic gelatin, as most bad guys are wearing clothes, and clothing can influence how some projectiles work, such as jacketed hollow point bullets, which can become plugged with clothing and fail to expand.

Ballistic gelatin is not a "perfect" testing medium, but hundreds and thousands of autopies have shown that results in BG testing do, in fact, corrolate very well with actual field use against bag guys.

And the human heart is not necessarily exactly 6 inches into a human that is shot. It depends on the angle at which the rounds enter the body, or if they have to pass through limbs before entering the torso, as already referenced at this site:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Read that site and it will answer many of your questions.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:53 pm 
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jeffersonkim wrote:
I'm in need of hearing someone post to be convinced of the necessity of buck shot in a HD situation: "I have a friend who shot an intruder with bird shot 2x, but the intruder was still able to maneuver and killed his entire family." I have yet to read on anything like this, and am interested in reading contrary evidence of a real life example. [/i]


You need to understand that such an example would be almost completely meaningless. The sample size is too small to have any validity.

You would need to study hundreds, or even thousands, of shooting incidents to make a determination about what "works" and what "does not work as well".

You and I can't do such studies (unless you have a lot more money than I do :wink: ), but the FBI can, and has done such studies.

And they have determined that birdshot is a very poor performer, because it cannot reach the 12 inch minimum penetration that they determined is required for the major organs to be damaged and to STOP an attacker from doing whatever he is doing.

Folks that post "I think" do not know for a fact what they are talking about. And they do fellow shooters no favors posting about subjects where they do not have any real expertise.

The data is not difficult to find. Links have been posted in this thread. Read them and Learn something, before posting wrong information that may get someone hurt or killed.

No offense meant, just friendly advice. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:11 pm 
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deke12ga wrote:
I know whats in theres, its buckshot.

Now, that's what is called a clue.
Quote:
But they use it in COMPLETLY DIFFERENT applications other than HD therfore having different needs than these topics discuss, therefore requiring different ammo.

Oh really?
Quote:
I do believe it, Birdshot does act like a slug for 5-8' or until it hits something then it disperses transfering engery to its target.

Energy transfer, good one. And even in terms of external ballistics, it does not act like a slug.
Quote:
True it doesnt penetrate as deep as a slug

And not much other than a slug does. But it also doesn't penetrate as much as buckshot. And even some small buck doesn't meet the FBI penetration depths needed. So that leaves birdshot farther out of that performance range.
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but it will be effective to a degree.

No, according to your standards it may be effective, largely due to the willing withdrawal by the person shot.
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What degree is needed, I dont know.

Don't worry, the FBI figured that out for you. 12" of properly calibrated ballistic gel.
Quote:
And I still dont know the distance the officer was shot at.

I don't either. but since it was a traffic stop and the driver stepped out and shot the officer who was distracted by the movements of the other occupants, I doubt the shooter got out and was running down the street away from him. And it was described as being "close range."
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Gelatin is great for testing ballistics and proving performance, in inanimate objects...

Don't know much about ballistic gel do you?
Quote:
The truth here is that feelings and reactions DO come into play in the real world with people. Yes thats a FACT! People feel and hurt, gelatin doesnt.

And no argument there. However if you don't see the danger in relying on the feelings and complicity of the target as opposed to physiologically taking away their ability to continue aggressive actions, you're totally lost in this discussion.
Quote:
Yea hes the poor guy that got shot that I would love to hear from to see what he thinks about birdshot.

Well since you missed it, let me break it down for you: he already indicated what he thought of it when ran several blocks chasing the guy who shot him with the birdshot. I don't care what he "thinks" about birdshot; how he reacted is more important. I can tell you exactly what his Chief thought about birdshot. He said he was very thankful that it was birdshot and not buckshot, otherwise Decoatsworth would be dead. Good enough?
Quote:
Never said it was true, always said its my opinion and all I ever did was to provide other alternatives to questions asked by unknowing people. Just because buckshot is what you need doesnt mean its what someone else needs or even wants to use.

Same here. The problem is you keep saying think, feel, etc.
Quote:
All I do know is that I'm just a good ole redneck boy that use to shoot things at close range with birdshot and it blew the $hiot out of stuff and based on what I've seen birdshot do to pumpkins, plywood, 2x4's, junk cars, books, steel drums, and pretty much anything else you can find at a landfill that can be shot I'd feel very comfortable using it in a HD situation at the distances allowed in my home.

Now that's funny, although it obviously has escaped you.
So you use your experience in shooting pumpkins, plywood, 2x4s, junk cars, books, steel drums, and other landfill detritus as part of your determination for HD effectiveness because in technical terms "it blew the $hiot out of stuff ?". Now, those are all inanimate objects, right? But didn't you just bemoan using ballistic gel because according to you (incorrectly by the way) it is inanimate? So were those inanimate objects able to feel and hurt, unlike my lowly ballistic gel?

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:12 pm 
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Posting what you "think" is what this forum is all about. Not many on here are "experts". What the FBI needs and uses as man stopping rounds may be different than what I, you, and the guy down the street needs. Your not the FBI and you dont have the same rights as an officer of the law has. Even in your home. Just because I think something then you have FBI information doesnt make what I think wrong. I do know for a fact that birdshot within certain distances will put a BIG A$$ hole in something. And I know that if you put that same BIG A$$ hole in a person in a vital area, they will bleed and die and stop wanting to hurt you! If you miss your mark, the biggest baddest buckshot round in the world isnt gonna help.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:20 pm 
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Ok you got me. I'm all out of arguments... Buckshot it is!!!

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:21 pm 
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Whatever Deke.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:26 pm 
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No you guys have better arguments and have since changed my thinking... thanks for the info and advice... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:45 pm 
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deke12ga wrote:
Your not the FBI and you dont have the same rights as an officer of the law has. Even in your home.


Once again, you are mistaken.

I was a police officer. And if I was justified to shoot someone, then any other citizen would also be justified in shooting them in the same situation.

Even in my home.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:55 pm 
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At 10 to 15 feet, an ounce and a quarter of anything is still an ounce and a quarter....and will carry the same energy whether it is in the form of #4 birdshot or #4 buckshot.
It is energy that puts most living targets on their backs, not "penetration". After all, I could penetrate a human 100% with a broadhead arrow and he would probably not know it for several minutes. There have been a LOT of 150lb deer do exactly that....
I could also penetrate a human with a full-jacketed (non-expanding) rifle bullet traveling 3000fps and unless it struck the small-to-tiny targets known as the central nervous system, he would be fully capable of his motor skills for enough time to make me wish for a shotgun loaded with birdshot. :D

Strike an intruder (or anyone else) solidly at the ranges we are talking about with any 12ga shotgun load and he will stop what he is doing.
That's my opinion and hopefully I won't ever have to demonstrate its validity.

Ever shoot a gallon jug full of water at close range with a field load of #8 shot?
Blows up just as if it was hit with a .40....maybe worse.
I rest my case....but everyone is entitled to their opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:09 pm 
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code5coupe wrote:
At 10 to 15 feet, an ounce and a quarter of anything is still an ounce and a quarter....and will carry the same energy whether it is in the form of #4 birdshot or #4 buckshot.


No sir, that is not correct.

See here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm

A load of #6 birdshot is not an "ounce and a quarter of solid lead", it is 333 small BBs. As I explained before:

"I weighed 10 of the individual #6 shot and they weighed a total of 18 grains.

That means each pellet weighs 1.8 grains.

Some folks have mistakenly said, "A load of #6 is like getting shot with a solid piece of lead weighing 600 grains".

Nope. Not at all. Because that 600 grain load is composed of 333 #6 sized shot, each weighing 1.8 grains.

And the penetration of the shot is dependant on the weight of "each pellet", not the total weight.

And a 1.8 grain pellet will not penetrate very far into a goblin.

That is why birdshot is for little birds and buckshot is for bad guys."

Quote:
It is energy that puts most living targets on their backs, not "penetration". After all, I could penetrate a human 100% with a broadhead arrow and he would probably not know it for several minutes.


No sir, not at all.

It is neither energy that Stops bad guys, or even penetration. It is tissue distruction and blood loss, or damage to the CNS.

And I seriously doubt that a person shot through with an arrow "would probably not know it for several minutes". Unless he was in a coma when shot.

He and the deer, will both die of blood loss. Not "energy".

Quote:
That's my opinion and hopefully I won't ever have to demonstrate its validity.


Hopefully, because you are wrong. No personal offense. :wink:

Quote:
Ever shoot a gallon jug full of water at close range with a field load of #8 shot?


Many times. Took pictures and published them on my site, too.

Quote:
Blows up just as if it was hit with a .40....maybe worse.
I rest my case....but everyone is entitled to their opinions.


Your "case" is meaningless. Unless you are ever attached by a herd of water jugs, how well birdshot "blows them up" is of no importance.

Birdshot does not meet the FBI minimum of 12 inches of penetration. No birdshot does. Only buckshot.

And that is not "opinion". It is Fact.

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Someone please tell me who could take a 12ga 1 1/8 8 shot from 10 feet and lived to tell the story!!!

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:17 pm 
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code5coupe wrote:
At 10 to 15 feet, an ounce and a quarter of anything is still an ounce and a quarter....and will carry the same energy whether it is in the form of #4 birdshot or #4 buckshot.

No, it will not. The reason is that the birdshot does not act in unison. Each pellet has its own mass and momentum. Now since the birdshot pellets are much smaller and lighter, which do you think is going to retain that penetration more?
It does not act as a slug, which is basically what you are saying.
Quote:
It is energy that puts most living targets on their backs, not "penetration".

Really? So kevlar has no utility, since all the energy is transferred to the target and there is no penetration as compared to an actual projo track?
Saying that penetration does not put something on its back is flat wrong. It is the only way with a small arm to reliably put something on its back. Two ways to end a fight quickly that don't involve voluntary withdrawal of the bad guy: CNS, and exsanguination. Both require penetration. You even admit as much.
Quote:
After all, I could penetrate a human 100% with a broadhead arrow and he would probably not know it for several minutes. There have been a LOT of 150lb deer do exactly that....

Arrows do damage by cutting. Bullets/pellets do damage by crushing and disrupting large amounts of tissue damage. Different wounding mechanisms. And in order to disrupt the "right" tissue, the projo has to penetrate.
Quote:
I could also penetrate a human with a fully-jacketed (non-expanding) rifle bullet traveling 3000fps and unless it struck the small-to-tiny targets known as the central nervous system, he would be fully capable of his motor skills for enough time to make me wish for a shotgun loaded with birdshot. :D

So you could see a large shallow surface wound is just as ineffective?
Quote:
Strike an intruder (or anyone else) solidly at the ranges we are talking about with any 12ga shotgun load and he will stop what he is doing.

Although this keeps getting repeated, it does not gain in any validity.
Quote:
That's my opinion and hopefully I won't ever have to demonstrate its validity.

It is certainly your opinion, and I hope you don't have to either. The whole problem with this discussion is that there are people that keep posting opinion as if it were fact, or if they just wish hard enough it will become fact.
Quote:
Ever shoot a gallon jug full of water at close range with a field load of #8 shot?
Blows up just as if it was hit with a .40....maybe worse.
I rest my case....but everyone is entitled to their opinions.

What is the hang up with shooting jugs, barrels, lumber, sheetrock, whatever and thinking that in any way translates to terminal ballistics? At best you get an idea of patterning.

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Last edited by m24shooter on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:28 pm 
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Old_Painless wrote:
code5coupe wrote:
At 10 to 15 feet, an ounce and a quarter of anything is still an ounce and a quarter....and will carry the same energy whether it is in the form of #4 birdshot or #4 buckshot.


No sir, that is not correct.

Yes, it absolutely is. E=MC2 proves it.

Of course the deer and the perp will eventually die of blood loss from being struck by an arrow....that was my whole point. Neither will be stopped immediately...they don't absorb enough energy to be stopped.
"Tissue distruction and blood loss" will not knock a man down at the shot. Only the shock from absorbing large amounts of energy will do that. (or a direct hit on the CNS, and one should never count on that; would take a very lucky hit).
But, if you require tissue destruction, ever shoot a gallon jug full of water with birdshot at close range (I ask again)?

I'm not concerned with FBI specifications when there is an intruder in my home, I just want to knock him on his backside...and 1 1/4 oz of any type of shot will do it. Buckshot will certainly do it. Birdshot will certainly do it.
If I wasn't convinced of that, I wouldn't be prepared to defend my family and property with it. (Actually, my HD shotgun is loaded with 1 7/8oz of #2 lead, which is "birdshot" :) [old goose loads]) Anyone struck with one or four loads of that will not be harming me or mine.)

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 Post subject: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:32 pm 
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O_P,
i stand corrected... i didnt realize that ballistic gelatin actually mimicked human tissue that well...

a bit of a sidebar but it is a good medium in the sense that it mimics soft tissues? or does it take into account penetrating bone in a more averaged sense? can you explain it in a bit more detail?


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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:40 pm 
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code5coupe wrote:
Old_Painless wrote:
code5coupe wrote:
At 10 to 15 feet, an ounce and a quarter of anything is still an ounce and a quarter....and will carry the same energy whether it is in the form of #4 birdshot or #4 buckshot.


No sir, that is not correct.

Yes, it absolutely is. E=MC2 proves it.

Of course the deer and the perp will eventually die of blood loss from being struck by an arrow....that was my whole point. Neither will be stopped immediately...they don't absorb enough energy to be stopped.
"Tissue distruction and blood loss" will not knock a man down at the shot. Only the shock from absorbing large amounts of energy will do that. (or a direct hit on the CNS, and one should never count on that; would take a very lucky hit).
But, if you require tissue destruction, ever shoot a gallon jug full of water with birdshot at close range (I ask again)?

I'm not concerned with FBI specifications when there is an intruder in my home, I just want to knock him on his backside...and 1 1/4 oz of any type of shot will do it. Buckshot will certainly do it. Birdshot will certainly do it.
If I wasn't convinced of that, I wouldn't be prepared to defend my family and property with it. (Actually, my HD shotgun is loaded with 1 7/8oz of #2 lead, which is "birdshot" :) [old goose loads]) Anyone struck with one or four loads of that will not be harming me or mine.)


by knocking them on their back? are you implying that the energy transfer from 1.25 oz of lead has sufficient energy to knock a person down? differentiating between between falling down due to shock or trauma of course

edit: on another note, where does the speed of light fall into this equation? e=mc^2 has nothing to do with ballistic principles nor inertia, maybe your thinking of conservation of energy which is a different formula


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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:45 pm 
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BERETTADT10 wrote:
Someone please tell me who could take a 12ga 1 1/8 8 shot from 10 feet and lived to tell the story!!!


Okay, glad too. :D

From my site:

"I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

How's that? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:55 pm 
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code5coupe wrote:

Yes, it absolutely is. E=MC2 proves it.


No sir, you are still wrong.

E=Mc2 is not the formula that applies.

Newton's Law applies. "For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction."

If shooting someone with a shot gun would "knock them off their feet", then the shooter would also be knocked off his feet.

There is a video on the net of a guy that sells bullet-proof vests. he is wearing a vest and stands on one foot. An assistant shoots him from 4 feet away with a FAL in 7.62 X 51 caliber.

He not only does not fall down, he doesn't even lose his balance and remains standing on one foot.

You are simply wrong. No offense.

Quote:
Of course the deer and the perp will eventually die of blood loss from being struck by an arrow....that was my whole point. Neither will be stopped immediately...they don't absorb enough energy to be stopped.


The false theory of "energy dump" has been so thouroughly debunked that I will not waste time arguing with you.

You are simply wrong. No offense.

Quote:
But, if you require tissue destruction, ever shoot a gallon jug full of water with birdshot at close range (I ask again)?


I answered you, but you didn't read my response.

I can see that you are not interested in actually learning anything, so will stop bothering you. Have a good night.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:57 pm 
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code5coupe wrote:
Yes, it absolutely is. E=MC2 proves it.

No. That is the formula for Einstein's Theory of Relativity. What you meant to say was E=MV2. And that applies to a single object. Not a dense "cloud" of smaller objects, each with its own mass and velocity, and independent vector.
Quote:
Of course the deer and the perp will eventually die of blood loss from being struck by an arrow....that was my whole point. Neither will be stopped immediately...they don't absorb enough energy to be stopped.

Please. Energy absorption, which I guess is your interpretation of the knockdown power myth, is not a factor in the study of terminal ballistics. Largely because it does not exist.
Quote:
"Tissue distruction and blood loss" will not knock a man down at the shot.

And nobody is saying that.
Quote:
Only the shock from absorbing large amounts of energy will do that. (or a direct hit on the CNS, and one should never count on that; would take a very lucky hit).

If what you are using is capable of knocking down a grown male assailant, how do you handle the fact that it has also knocked you down when you fired it?
I'm guessing that this and the
Quote:
But, if you require tissue destruction, ever shoot a gallon jug full of water with birdshot at close range (I ask again)?

Are you ignoring that he posted that he did just that? It is even featured rather prominently on his website.
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I'm not concerned with FBI specifications when there is an intruder in my home,

Yeah, what do they know about terminal ballistics. All they did was devote several years and a lot of research to it. You shot jugs. You've got them waaay outclassed.
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I just want to knock him on his backside...and 1 1/4 oz of any type of shot will do it. Buckshot will certainly do it. Birdshot will certainly do it.

Maybe, maybe not. Even if you do knock him down, unless he is willing to stop fighting, he may still be able continue the attack. Disrupting his hydraulics and command will prevent that.
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If I wasn't convinced of that, I wouldn't be prepared to defend my family and property with it. (Actually, my HD shotgun is loaded with 1 7/8oz of #2 lead, which is "birdshot" :) [old goose loads]) Anyone struck with one or four loads of that will not be harming me or mine.)

I have no doubt that you are convinced. People were convinced that planet was flat. People are convinced that chemtrails are thought control. When those convictions are based on flawed and incorrect information, they really don't mean much.
But hey, if you feel better about it, knock yourself out. Or down. Or whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: re: How far does Birdshot Penetrate a human?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:03 pm 
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t_durden wrote:
O_P,
i stand corrected... i didnt realize that ballistic gelatin actually mimicked human tissue that well...


No problem. I didn't understand that myself until a few yaers ago. :)

Quote:
a bit of a sidebar but it is a good medium in the sense that it mimics soft tissues? or does it take into account penetrating bone in a more averaged sense? can you explain it in a bit more detail?


It takes in to account all types of tissue, flesh, muscle, bone, sinew, everything.

If a round penetrates 10 inches into BG, it will on average penetrate 10 inches into a human body.

This data is backed up by hundreds and thousands of autopsies.

Interestingly enough, the BG must be carefully mixed and refrigerated to meet specifications. And before any test, a BB is shot at a specific velocity and must penetrate to an exact depth to verify that the BG is caliberated correctly. If it does not, the BG is discarded and not used.

It is an awful lot of trouble and is usually only done in official labs. I don't have the facilities and instead use water to measure penetration. Water works at approximately a 2 to 1 ratio, i.e., a round that penetrates 12 inches into water will penetrate approximately 6 inches into BG.

Not as precise, but good enough for estimates. :D



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