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 Post subject: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:21 pm 
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I decided to not post this in the current birdshot thread, where it would just get lost. Which thread? That's right, there seems to always be a current birdshot thread. There were two separate home invasions within 50 miles of here last year and each homeowner was attacked by five men.

Honest men can have the misbelief that an attack will be from one attacker. Thieves believe in strength in numbers. Honest men work to provide for their families. Thieves "work" in crews and in gangs that they cynically call their families. Honest men are concerned with their futures. Thieves are concerned with avoiding arrest. Honest men work legitimate jobs. Thieves plan "jobs" and attacks to avoid legitimate work.

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A homeowner is dead and three men are in jail for invading his home 25 miles from here about midnight, 17 Feb 2012. His guns were their goal. His daughter's boyfriend knew about the guns and he was the getaway driver. The homeowner answered a knock on his door, and he was shot and also struck with a weapon. The two continued into the house and his wife was shot several times in another room, but she shot one of them twice. The boyfriend/getaway driver fled when he heard shots. The wife will survive. The homeowner died less than three days later.

From jail five days later, one of the three requested an interview with a local television reporter. He claims that his distant cousin texted him that he had "some 'work' to do, and you are the only person that I can trust." He claims that he did not know that they were going into someone's home. Sure. AT MIDNIGHT!! "Yes, I was there and I broke into their house, but I did not pull the trigger." He knew that his cousin/triggerman and the boyfriend/getaway driver had planned the "work" for several weeks in advance. He knew that the "work" had originally been planned, but then called off, for a day that was one week before the actual home invasion.

It is bad enough that there are so many misguided people who are anxious to rehabilitate violent criminals and to give them another chance, yes, another chance to harm some other man and his family. It is pitiful, though, that advocates of birdshot for HD cannot admit the danger a homeowner is in who only has birdshot to protect his family from multiple thieves who have planned their attack.

If a frog had wings, he would not bump his a$$. Meaning, if birdshot was the correct HD load, it would not fail to penetrate a minimum of 12" into calibrated ballistic gelatin.



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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm 
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I am with you man. We had a slew of daytime burglaries throughout last summer in our area, 1 was just a block from my house. They finally arrested 8 people for the crimes. They would usually have 4 of them enter a house with the remainder acting as lookouts, sometimes more would enter the home. Their m.o. was to knock first, if someone answered they would be selling firewood, offer dogwalking services or some other seemingly innocent venture. If no answer at the door that was their invitation to enter, a couple times they entered homes while the homeowners were home, unaware that someone had knocked. Fortunately nobody was ever injured during these invasions but it was not far from happening in a couple cases.

I carry a handgun pretty much 24/7, even when I am at home. Rifles are kept with full magazines, safety on, bolt closed, shotguns have full magazine tubes of 00 buck and a round chambered, safety on. I keep all the doors and windows locked at all times, including screen doors. I lock the door behind me if I need to go outside for any reason. If my wife and I are at home and one of us needs to leave the above is repeated, we also announce ourselves to each other when we re-enter our home, for obvious reasons. We have a dog and motion sensing security lights. I know all of my neighbors surrounding me, we live in the city.

Birdshot has a place in my home/personal defense plan, practice ammo only. I agree that recommending and advising birdshot for home defense ammo is rediculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:12 pm 
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mountainwilliam wrote:
... I carry a handgun pretty much 24/7, even when I am at home... I agree that recommending and advising birdshot for home defense ammo is ridiculous.

And I am with you, man. There were 138 guests reading our forum when I started typing my reply to you, William. Your suggestions are top shelve. We all must remember that some of our guests are new and thirsty for correct suggestions about HD. We want to help them in every possible way to safely defend themselves and their families.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:45 am 
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I've done a bit of study on this topic, not as much as some. I am familiar with the idea of pellet penetration. I am familiar with the idea of a "temporary wound channel" although I'm not 100% convinced of the validity of this concept - ballistic gelatin does not bleed or feel. I am familiar with the concept of one-shot-stop. But let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment here: If somebody shot me at point blank range with a 1 oz target load, I would leave. I don't care if there are 5 of us bustin' in. I'm going back to the get-away vehicle and make sure I have a ride to the nearest hospital.

Maybe that's because I'm not high on meth or angel dust or anything, but is there solid evidence out there that intruders keep coming after being shot with bird-shot? Even out of an open-choke barrel an ounce of bird shot must hit almost as hard as any other one-ounce projectile at 10 feet. At 30 yards they make a pretty clay-crushing pattern, but at 10 feet they're spread out maybe 4-5" with a solid core of pellets still bumping elbows. At that distance the plastic wad cup will imbed itself in the flesh. I would think at least one rib impacted by the center of the pattern would shatter.

That said, I'm going not going to be throwing bird shot. I may carry a .380 auto on my walks, and I'll even call you an ambulance if you can't get away after I'm done shooting. But if you break into my house where my kids and my wife are in harms way, I will be shooting to kill and I will bring it like a bull elephant. I run 3" Remingtons in 000 buck, and I'm not by any means the only one armed at my place!

But that's just me. Maybe somebody out there thinks of bird-shot as a less lethal alternative with still a great deal of stopping-power. I can hardly fault him for taking that calculated risk. (Assuming he realizes that it is a risk, and has chosen birdshot for it's non-lethal qualities.)

What does everybody think?


Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:02 am 
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Researcher wrote:
But let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment here: If somebody shot me at point blank range with a 1 oz target load, I would leave. Dave


If somebody shot me with anything, I would do whatever I needed to survive. I would assume whoever had put the first round in me was going to keep shooting. If I was armed I would be firing back, repeatedly until the threat to me had stopped.

If I were returning fire with my shotgun, it would be 10 rounds of 00 buck before I had to reload...

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:37 am 
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wfb18 wrote:
The homeowner answered a knock on his door, and he was shot and also struck with a weapon.


People call me paranoid, but when it gets dark and I haven't been contacted by my friends saying they are coming to hang, and someone knocks at my back door (I live in a garage), I answer with a loaded .40s&w pressed up against the door. Because I do live with my family still (I'm 21 just in case anyone wants to know), and I live in the garage with all of the firearms. So if I go down that's all the guns and options for serious home defense gone.

I even have it set up so there is a nice heavy standing freezer right next to the door, on good solid rollers, so if I flick the porch light on, and there are a few armed bruisers chilling there I can get something heavy between myself and them while I go for something bigger than my pistol.

Researcher wrote:
But let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment here: If somebody shot me at point blank range with a 1 oz target load, I would leave. I don't care if there are 5 of us bustin' in. I'm going back to the get-away vehicle and make sure I have a ride to the nearest hospital.


Which is the thought process of a rational human being, with good morals, who knows they are doing something fundamentally wrong, not just wrong in the eyes of the law. When a rational person is doing something they know is wrong they'll take any excuse they can get to get out of it. Whether it's a hiccup in the plan, an injury which might even be superficial, whatever.

I don't tend to credit the kinds of people who break into houses, and would even think of killing another human being just for their belongings, with rational thought processes or morals of any kind. Which is why I would prefer that after I fire my gun at them that they have no cognitive processes left period. I don't have to worry about what someone's next move will be if they aren't making another move ever again.

The amount of variables that are at play in a home defense situation for me would be high enough without adding the welfare of the attacker(s) to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:20 am 
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Here's a couple of interesting stories about armed home invasions recently here in Cleveland (I could post several more but will not due to space limitations)

The first one happened just the other day, and resulted in the bad guy, a local teenager, hanging on for life from a single shot to the chest with a .32.

Several lessons to be learned from that one- especially:

-If you're going to shoot a semi-auto (I do) then you better practice a lot and make sure it is 100% reliable with the loads you plan to keep in it

-If you are going to shoot a semi-auto, you had better learn how to clear a jam under pressure, if not you should get a quality revolver in .357 mag (either Ruger or S&W)

-You should get the best doors that you can and make sure they are hard to get through

-Assume that if someone is breaking through your door they are armed

-Make sure your first shot is a good one

Quote:
Cleveland homeowner wounds young intruder before gun jams
Published: Friday, February 24, 2012, 5:41 PM
By James Ewinger, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Ted Ziolkowski's pistol jammed right after the 78-year-old farmer shot someone for the first time in his life late Thursday night.
He left a single hollow-point round in the chest of a 17-year-old Cleveland youth who was later arrested for aggravated burglary, for trying to break into the rental property Ziolkowski owns on Clement Ave., on Cleveland's southeast side.
"Police told me if I hadn't dropped him with that that first one, he would have got me," Ziolkowski said in a telephone interview.
The youth remained in Metrohealth Medical Center under police guard. His mother said late Friday afternoon that "he's fighting for his life."
She said her son had been in trouble with the law before. She also said he'd been shot before, when he was 14 and he caught a stray bullet in the leg during a gang shootout in which he was not involved.
This time he was armed, according to police. They did not identify the weapon, but Ziolkowski said investigators told him it was an ancient chrome-plated .32 cal. Smith & Wesson semi-automatic.
The property owner, who now lives on a farm in Ashtabula County, was sleeping on a couch in the kitchen. He had been making repairs to the house where his late mother used to live. Now it contains two rental units, and he hopes to sell it.
He heard the youth trying to break in, and saw the beam of a flashlight through a crack in the kitchen door.
The youth "had a screwdriver and popped out the lock. When he pushed open the door I fired one shot," Ziolkowski. The intruder slumped against the door, and the old man couldn't open it so he called 911.
The 11 p.m. break-in was the second one of the day, he said. That morning someone had broken into the upstairs apartment "and the carpet had been cut out."
Between the two burglaries, intruders "busted out three of my doors, the back door, one to the downstairs apartment and one to the upstairs. They're the old type and you can't buy them anymore. So I'll get steel ones and steel jambs. They want a fortune for those."
Ziolkowski used a .32 cal. Beretta pistol. "I never shot anybody before, not outside of a deer," he said. "It was dark there and he looked awful big to me."
The shooting will be reviewed by the city prosecutor, police said. Ziolkowski said he would drop off his weapon at the 4th District Police Station for ballistics tests as police requested. They promised to return it to him.


Quote:
CLEVELAND —
Police say a homeowner shot and wounded two teens who broke into his home and tried to steal items.

The teens were found outside the house Sunday with gunshot wounds to their legs. They have been arrested on suspicion of aggravated burglary and taken to a hospital for treatment.

The Plain Dealer reports the homeowner got his handgun out when his burglar alarm started going off. Police say the man saw the youths inside his house trying to steal property and he fired at them.

They ran outside, where police later found them. Two other teens acted as lookouts and fled.

An investigation is continuing.


Quote:
AKRON, Ohio -- An Akron man was robbed Tuesday night by three men who went to his Triplett Boulevard home to buy an Xbox video game system that he had advertised on Craigslist.
Akron police said one man went to the victim's house and looked at the gaming system around 6 p.m. He then called a friend to bring him money to buy the game.
Within minutes, two armed men broke into the house and robbed the victim of $85.
During the robbery, the victim pulled out his own handgun and fired several shots at the suspects, who ran out of the house and drove off in a car.
Around 7 p.m., police got a call from Barberton Citizens Hospital about a man who being treated for a gunshot wound to his elbow. Police interviewed the victim and arrested him and his companion as suspects in the earlier robbery.

Summit County Jail
Shawn Davis
Jeremy Culver, 18, of Fairlawn, and Shawn Davis, 20, of Akron, were charged with aggravated robbery. Culver was also charged with possession of a counterfeit controlled substance after police found a fake rock of crack cocaine in his pocket.
Both were booked into the Summit County Jail.
The third suspect has not been identified or located


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:56 am 
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Quote:
I've done a bit of study on this topic, not as much as some. I am familiar with the idea of pellet penetration. I am familiar with the idea of a "temporary wound channel" although I'm not 100% convinced of the validity of this concept - ballistic gelatin does not bleed or feel. I am familiar with the concept of one-shot-stop. But let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment here:


You know, I was going to explain the answers to these questions, but am just weary of posting the same information that has been posted time after time after time after time.

We need a sticky at the top of the page that addresses these silly birdshot questions. It is ridiculous for us to have to answer them every week, again and again.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:04 am 
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The only way I'd EVER have birdshot in my HD shotgun is if I was expecting an unwanted covey of quail to break in.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:49 am 
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cj5mrt wrote:
The only way I'd EVER have birdshot in my HD shotgun is if I was expecting an unwanted covey of quail to break in.


"Post of the Day" award to you sir and +1 !!! {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:12 pm 
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Researcher wrote:
I've done a bit of study on this topic, not as much as some. I am familiar with the idea of pellet penetration. I am familiar with the idea of a "temporary wound channel" although I'm not 100% convinced of the validity of this concept - ballistic gelatin does not bleed or feel. I am familiar with the concept of one-shot-stop. But let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment here: If somebody shot me at point blank range with a 1 oz target load, I would leave. I don't care if there are 5 of us bustin' in. I'm going back to the get-away vehicle and make sure I have a ride to the nearest hospital.

Maybe that's because I'm not high on meth or angel dust or anything, but is there solid evidence out there that intruders keep coming after being shot with bird-shot? Even out of an open-choke barrel an ounce of bird shot must hit almost as hard as any other one-ounce projectile at 10 feet. At 30 yards they make a pretty clay-crushing pattern, but at 10 feet they're spread out maybe 4-5" with a solid core of pellets still bumping elbows. At that distance the plastic wad cup will imbed itself in the flesh. I would think at least one rib impacted by the center of the pattern would shatter.

That said, I'm going not going to be throwing bird shot. I may carry a .380 auto on my walks, and I'll even call you an ambulance if you can't get away after I'm done shooting. But if you break into my house where my kids and my wife are in harms way, I will be shooting to kill and I will bring it like a bull elephant. I run 3" Remingtons in 000 buck, and I'm not by any means the only one armed at my place!

But that's just me. Maybe somebody out there thinks of bird-shot as a less lethal alternative with still a great deal of stopping-power. I can hardly fault him for taking that calculated risk. (Assuming he realizes that it is a risk, and has chosen birdshot for it's non-lethal qualities.)

What does everybody think?


Dave


Birdshot pellets have very low penetration capability, that is the inherent problem with using birdshot. There is no mythical "solid core" of pellets, there is a loose cloud of individual pellets that will hit and expend their small amounts of KE on the target. Also, small projectiles leave holes that the body will almost immediately seal up through swelling, even .22 holes will usually almost disappear. Buckshot leaves big enough entrance (and exit) holes that it will not stop bleeding. Each pellet (though fewer number) has much better penetration capability and will punch through to organs rather than a semi-surface flesh wound. Also, if you shoot at an intruder with a firearm, the court isn't going to care whether you were trying for a more "non-lethal" ammunition choice, the law is the same and you will also now have a wounded intruder who will suddenly get painted by his lawyer and mother as "an innocent child" and they will sue you in civil court. If you have to shoot, SHOOT TO KILL and do so with the most optimal ammo for success.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:07 pm 
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too bad for the poor homeowner....very sad story but and a lesson for all the people.....
because a shotgun is the only legal gun to own,for HD,here i will stick with 00 buck 8 or 9 pellets.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:50 am 
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Researcher wrote:
I've done a bit of study on this topic, not as much as some.


Dave, there are folks here who've made it their full-time hobby, and there are those that post regularly to other forums where this topic is their profession. Heed their words as a lot of us do who aren't professional ballisticians.

Quote:
I am familiar with the idea of pellet penetration.


This is a good thing.

Quote:
I am familiar with the idea of a "temporary wound channel" although I'm not 100% convinced of the validity of this concept - ballistic gelatin does not bleed or feel. I am familiar with the concept of one-shot-stop.


1) Temporary wound cavity/stretch cavity/"hydrostatic shock"/kinetic energy etc. are not measurable or reliable indicators of how a projectile will perform in regards to terminal ballistics. Permanent wound channels measured in calibrated ballistic gel are reliable analogs for the purposes of terminal ballistic testing.

2) A "one shot stop" is a goal with an indistinct definition as opposed to a measurable result. You will not see anyone serious about the subject use that term (or "stopping /knockdown power" for that matter).

Quote:
But let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment here: If somebody shot me at point blank range with a 1 oz target load, I would leave. I don't care if there are 5 of us bustin' in. I'm going back to the get-away vehicle and make sure I have a ride to the nearest hospital.


I'm betting you are a normal, law-abiding citizen rather than a criminal engaged in the business of "hot" burglary. Comparing the former mindset to the latter is both spurious and dangerous. Criminals do not behave or react in the same ways that we do, and it is an often fatal mistake to believe that they will.

Quote:
Maybe that's because I'm not high on meth or angel dust or anything, but is there solid evidence out there that intruders keep coming after being shot with bird-shot?


While the plural of anecdote is not data, the short answer is "Yes. Motivated humans have continued the fight after being shot point blank with birdshot, sometimes chasing down and dispatching the shooter". The Philly officer shot in the face and chasing the perp down for over 800 yards through city streets a few years back is the first instance that comes to mind. There are other, similar anecdotes out there.

Quote:
Even out of an open-choke barrel an ounce of bird shot must hit almost as hard as any other one-ounce projectile at 10 feet. At 30 yards they make a pretty clay-crushing pattern, but at 10 feet they're spread out maybe 4-5" with a solid core of pellets still bumping elbows. At that distance the plastic wad cup will imbed itself in the flesh. I would think at least one rib impacted by the center of the pattern would shatter.


This is probably the most often repeated (and totally incorrect) conclusion/opinion surrounding birdshot. External ballistics is a science. That science tells us that virtually the nanosecond that a projectile leaves a barrel - even when it was originally packed close together with other projos in a wad - that each projectile acts/behaves as an individual.

At muzzle plus any airspace, getting shot with a 1 oz load of #6 birdshot isn't just like getting shot with a 1 oz slug, rather it IS like getting shot with 315 .11" diameter lead pellets over a small area. A full contact shot is only slightly better.

Is it going to hurt? Absolutely. Will it kill? Probably (eventually). Will it stop an attack? Maybe. Will it stop a criminal attacker from continuing to try to do harm to you and yours? Not reliably... and that is what our goal is.

Quote:
That said, I'm going not going to be throwing bird shot. I may carry a .380 auto on my walks, and I'll even call you an ambulance if you can't get away after I'm done shooting. But if you break into my house where my kids and my wife are in harms way, I will be shooting to kill and I will bring it like a bull elephant. I run 3" Remingtons in 000 buck, and I'm not by any means the only one armed at my place!


While this is awesome to hear, reconsider the #000 - just from a cost/benefit POV. #00 or #1 buck will penetrate to the required depth with more permanent wound tracks and less recoil. Smaller buck that will still do the job is a better option, but that is a different debate, and one where I'd be happy to agree to disagree. {hs#

Quote:
But that's just me. Maybe somebody out there thinks of bird-shot as a less lethal alternative with still a great deal of stopping-power.


Again, "stopping / knockdown power" is a descriptor of something that does not exist outside of carefully formulated video game mechanics. In the real world there is no such thing.

Quote:
I can hardly fault him for taking that calculated risk. (Assuming he realizes that it is a risk, and has chosen birdshot for it's non-lethal qualities.)

What does everybody think?


Risk is the operative word, and - while humans engage in risk-calculations every time we step out of the front door - how to stop someone hell-bent on doing you harm is not really the time to be calculating risks. It is the time to be stopping the attack, and birdshot doesn't do that reliably... period, end of debate.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:28 pm 
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Ok, let`s get to motivation--his, not yours.

If he is not real motivated he will leave when he knows somebody is awake and knows he is there.
Ditto, he will leave when you rack your shotgun.
Ditto, he will leave after your verbal warning.
Ditto, he will flee at a miss or warning shot.
Ditto, he will lay down and cry for paramedics when he is shot anywhere with anything.

But what happens if he is motivated to walk all over you? For any or no reason, much less any reason know to you?
Do you know the motivation of every perp in the world?
A room distance at O`dark:30 do you have time to fool around?
Last question: do you feel lucky?

Do a search of this site or any other hD/SD site and you will get the same general answer:
Know your state laws and get in the first good shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:12 am 
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The real problem with bird shot is: "IT JAMS". Look at all the posts about #8 target/bird shot. The Federal, Winchester, Remengton all those cheep steel based bird shots. They Jam in guns that cycle 00 Buck fine. There are soo many so called "HD" people that never shot there guns, I doubt if they even know if they work. Take your gun out , load it with bird shot and see if it shots. You will be suprised.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:32 am 
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forehire:

not sure what you are referring to. Most "bird shot" is lead and always has been. Same for most target loads.

Shot for ducks and geese (waterfowl) must be steel or other approved non-toxic shot.

I have never had any failures to feed. failures to fire, or "jams" due to bird shot.

Maybe you are referring to the fact that sometimes steel shot can rust in the shell. This is pretty rare, and usually due to extreme abuse like leaving them in the floor of a boat.

"Jams" are usually caused by rough chambers, extractor problems, etc.

Still, this is way off target. Bird shot is vastly inferior to 00 Buck, 0 Buck, and #1 Buck, because it doesn't have anywhere near the effectiveness in immobilizing or killing a bad person trying to attack you. That's the fact.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:00 am 
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Researcher wrote:
...snip... But that's just me. Maybe somebody out there thinks of bird-shot as a less lethal alternative with still a great deal of stopping-power. I can hardly fault him for taking that calculated risk. (Assuming he realizes that it is a risk, and has chosen birdshot for it's non-lethal qualities.)

What does everybody think?


Dave


Dave...
What or why someone makes the choices they do is between themselves and their maker. Bottom line is you have to live with your choices. I would not expect my chances to live with my choice would be improved by using birdshot UNLESS there was NOTHING ELSE available. I would never make the choice to use birdshot as a "kinder and gentler" defensive round. Lethal force is lethal force and trying to reduce the effectiveness of that decision is not a good plan in my book.

Those that would choose birdshot as their preferred HD ammo because it is potentially not as lethal as buck or ball are certainly entitled to follow their own path. What will be, will be. I wish them success and hope they never have to find out if they made the wrong decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:54 am 
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As an old retired sheriff of a rural county, I think I can give a bit of advice, whether wanted or not. Those old farmers used what they had handy and lived to tell me about it.

I have investigated many shootings since 1964. Almost all of them were shot with bird shot or 22 rifles. A lot of them lived. Most of them were picked up by the coroner.

A shotgun blast at close range, such as Researcher mentions, will stop anyone, even with #9 shot. No matter how many clothes he has on, it is a stopper within home defense range. It doesn't always kill, but it puts an immediate stop to the perp. Close by is the company that builds Kevlar vests. I have observed them testing shotgun loads at 5 yards. It always puts the test dummy down with small shot but doesn't penetrate the vest. No way is a person going to walk out of a house after being hit "point blank" with a shotgun blast and take himself to a medical facility. It ain't gonna happen.

I don't care to get flamed today so I won't make a recommendation. You gentlemen have already made up your minds and I will only draw fire and your ire. I spent my entire adult life watching autopsies and investigating these type cases. I know of what I speak.

What do I have handy just in the very rare case of a home invasion? I have a 20 gauge Nova loaded with Wally World #6s. That is what I hunt with and that is what the prosecutor is going to look at when he reviews the case. The Castle Doctrine, though it sounds like a "get out of jail" ticket, has enough loopholes in it to throw a bull through. By the time the lawyers get all your money, you might not pull time, but you will take a financial hurting.

The only advice I will offer is that you have in the chamber the load you last hunted with. The DA will be all over the case and this may be the clincher. Many of you say "kill". I say "stop" the perp and save yourself emotional and mental turmoil. It is easy to say that you will take a life. The residual effects aren't easy to live with, even if you feel justified. I know of what I speak.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:27 am 
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evbutler wrote:

The only advice I will offer is that you have in the chamber the load you last hunted with. The DA will be all over the case and this may be the clincher. .


Ev, your life, your gamble, your call.

However, folks do bring up this idea that a 'black gun' or a particular round like 00 buck will be more likely to get you convicted than using birdshot from a 'wood gun'. Like others before me have asked, can you provide a list of actual cases where the type of gun/load vice the circumstances were the factor in a conviction or civil loss?

If you use birdshot, a competent lawyer could argue that you obviously fired prior to truly being in fear of imminent bodily harm to yourself or others since you used a round more likely to maim than kill. As an experienced and informed person, you knew the trade-offs between 00 and birdshot yet chose to use the less effective round for stopping the threat since you knew you would 'shoot first and ask questions later' and so you chose a round to mask those intentions. Hey look, I must not have really wanted to shoot 'cuz I'm just using this 'hunting' ammo that's less likely to kill him. So, you planned to use a gun in the gravest extreme to save yourself and deliberately handicapped yourself from the get go? Sound more like you're trying to shoot before you really have to...

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:39 am 
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Ev, thankfully there was a dirtbag in the Texas hill country that loaded his sawed-off shotgun with birdshot before he shot a Trooper at close range a couple years ago. The Trooper's magazines stopped the birdshot and his .357 SIG stopped the bad guy. Loaded SIG 226 magazines will not even slow down a load of buckshot.



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